Looking for a single sub to replace two M&K V-125s

Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Long time since I've posted here. I apologize in advance if the following is long-winded. XD

I have been looking at ID subs for a while and I'm trying to decide what will effectively replace my M&Ks for good. I like the M&Ks for the most part. They don't draw attention unto themselves, they go reasonably low, but they don't have the "slam" that I know other subwoofers have. I would like to be able to get a lower natural FR and more dynamic capability.

I had a Paradigm PS-1000 a few years ago which was a 10" 250 watt sub a bandpass configuration (no sure which order) and had three rear mounted ports. I found that by closing two of the ports that it would dig very deep and had plenty of slam. I remember being surprised how good it sounded with music as well despite the bandpass design which I had long thought to be inferior for music. If my recollection serves me right I believe it could go lower than the M&Ks I now use which claim an FR of 20Hz.

I recently tried a DCM1515 in my system which uses a 15" active driver and a 15" passive radiator powered by a 250 watt amplifier. I didn't mess with it too much because I found that after just listening to one CD with it that it didn't go as low as the M&Ks do.

Subs I have looked at and considered.

Rythmik F12 $879 - This one looks the most impressive far from what I've looked at. The manufacturers webpage indicates and FR of 14Hz (chamber/ground plane/in-room?). I'm guessing the servo plays a significant part on this. I also notice this sub ways more than 70 pounds, indicative of a large motor on the driver.

SVS PB-2000 $799 - The SVS is considerably larger in size than the Rythmik. Despite weighing 10 pounds less it will be more awkward to move around and I imagine placing it is a little more tricky due to it's ported design. Manufacturer indicates a ground plane FR of 17Hz.

HSU VTF-2/VTF-3 $559/$669 - These subs are both fairly large. They both feature port tuning which puts me in mind of the Paradigm PS-1000 I mentioned above. The VTF-2 is about the same size as the SVS PB-2000 but is $240 less, never mind $320 less than the Rythmik. The FR is stated as being 18Hz on the VTF-2. The VTF-3 seems like the more fitting parallel competition to these other two but still undercuts the others by $100 or more. The VTF-3 is also the largest and has an FR of 16Hz with one port plugged.

Power Sound Audio XS15 $749 - I don't know much about this company but I've seen them mentioned frequently while doing my research. It's the only 15" in this comparison yet is the smallest in dimension and is also the lightest at just under 60 pounds. In fact it's not much larger than one of my M&K V-125s. The FR I'm going to say is inconclusive because they say 12Hz in room at CEA and then it says 16Hz is "typical" in-room. While that's not say encroaching on the all time champions of willy nilly FR claims, Definitive Technology, it still leaves me wondering just what it does.

This is all I have so far, hopefully some of the helpful folks here can shed some insight on this dilemma. I'd like to spend $500-800 and no... I do not have good craftsmanship skills, so outside a pre-manfactured cabinet I'm not a DIYer.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Seth, you are one of the real veterans here and you should know by now that giving sub recommendations without knowing room volume is kinda useless :)

btw: PowerSound was founded by two ex-SVS top people :) so they definitely have solid credentials ..

That said SVS-PB2000 will probably give most accurate bass, and HSU VTF-2/3 will provide 2nd best while being probably winner for value. PSA subs were really good deal at intro prices, but now their prices climbed to not so great value territory imo
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
XS30 or F15HP. Overbudget recommendation is always the way to go with subs :D I'd have to say SB2000 or XS15.

16Hz from a sealed sub isn't the same as 16hz from a low tuned vented sub and I've tried it out on a F12 and my Empire. Yes the meter reads that it is there, but there's less rumble to let you know that. Rumble down low generally isn't what people are after with a sealed sub though, so there's your tradeoff.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
It's looking like HSU might have the best balance for my purpose.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Seth, you are one of the real veterans here and you should know by now that giving sub recommendations without knowing room volume is kinda useless :)
I wasn't sure how relevant it would be considering how small the room is.
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
Re: Looking for a single sub to replace two M&K V-125s

Fwiw, I haven't heard the MB Quart Vera sub, but it's been well reviewed. If it's anything like the bookshelfs I just got, it's a steal and will impress much beyond anything else you might find for less than a grand. It's on closeout and in your price range. If you're in the U.S. I highly recommend adding it to your list for consideration.

MB Quart sub

I think it's got one active 12" and two passive 10" radiators in a sealed enclosure, if I recall correctly, and a reasonably flat response. The specs claim it weighs 128lbs. It's worth googling in any case.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk 2
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I wasn't sure how relevant it would be considering how small the room is.
what's exactly the point. With small room you'd get a large boundary gain - aka you could spend much less for sub... aka SVS pb1000 could work great in small rooms
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
You aren't including shipping with the Hsu subs, that puts the VTF3 at $769 and the VTF2 at $626. If you are looking for extension, I would go for the ported subs. The PB2000 is probably capable of the cleanest deep bass, but the VTF3 can let you decide between ultra deep bass or more deep bass punch traded for some extension. If you aren't going to be listening at high volumes, the VTF2 would probably do just fine.

As for the Rythmik F12, I don't think it is going to dig deep without a lot of help from the room. I wouldn't get it for the purpose of extension, but no doubt it will have very good sound quality. It's motor isn't abnormally large for a 12, it is using the DS1200 I believe, which has a very healthy looking motor and pretty good T/S parameters. It has a decent looking magnet, and its somewhat low BL and low Le would seem to indicate that it doesn't go overboard on voice coil, which is a good thing as far as accuracy is concerned. The PSA XS15, on the other hand, has a pretty pitiful looking motor for a 15" driver, and the measurements bear that out, I would skip it. You say you are open to a pre-manufactured cabinet, I would give the Dayton Titanic 4 15" kit a look, very good driver and very easy kit to put together with plenty of amp power. The only problem with that is the amp has a indefeatable 18 Hz filter, I think 24dB/octave, but you won't get much room gain below that point even though it is a sealed sub. Still, above 30 hz, that thing is sure to be a powerhouse. There is a sub from a new company that might be worth looking at, the Reaction BPS 215, it is a dual-opposed 15", pretty decent specs with a natural sealed roll-off, and it's the same price as the Rythmik F12. That may be a very good sub. The owner has been pretty responsive and open on the Reaction thread at AVS. Could be a killer sub for the price.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
It's looking like HSU might have the best balance for my purpose.
Since you have a small room sealed might be your best option as a sealed sub would be less likely to excite room modes. Good reproduction of the last couple of octaves, especially the last octave is difficult. Unfortunately commercial subs play the numbers game.

So I'll give you as short a version as I can.

Loudspeakers are lousy acoustic couples to a room, and the bigger the room the worse they are. Now manufacturers practically never tell you the Q of the driver. This is important as total system Q can never be less than driver Qts. So any sub with a sloppy high Q suspension will never sound good.

In a sealed alignment you can get Q at driver Qts. However without Eq F3 is way above driver fs. The end result is that good sealed systems are expensive, requiring lots of power, and drivers that have high excursion. However this brute force approach, leads to distortion rising rapidly with decreasing frequency and dynamic compression under the best of circumstances.

So optimally a driver needs an acoustic transformer. That leaves ported boxes, pipes and horns. Of which by far the best options are pipes and horns. However they take up a lot of real estate and take a lot of experience to engineer. Unfortunately most commercial subs don't sound good as they go for lowest F3 whereas lack of ripple and lowest Q should be the design goal. That is why you don't want to plug a port on the HSU sub. In addition to lowering bass quality and power handling it also has port chuff if you do that.

So what of your choices?

The SVS seems tuned very nicely and is good value for money.



As is typical for these designs distortion goes off the clock as the driver decouples from the box. Distortion is minimal at box resonance where driver cone displacement is minimum.

The HSU is a pretty decent sub, and optimized for high output and roll off at 30 Hz. In your room not a bad thing.



The Rythmic is a servo sub, which is one way and a good way of equalizing a sealed box.

Frequency response is respectable.



As is typical for the breed, there is significant power compression which your room will mitigate.


Also distortion as anticipated is high.


For comparison here is what I think is optimal for the lower octave reproduction. Unfortunately, it requires a tolerant wife and a lot of experience to design it.

These are my full range dual lines.

I made these measurements as loud as I could stand it. Note the frequency response is smooth and roll of is indeed second order, as the pipes are damped just to the point where there is one peak of impedance. There is slight 5db ripple where the pipes transition. The measurements are taken just below 100 db. These are truly full range speakers.


It is a myth that pipes have high distortion. When calculating db to % THD, the maximum bass distortion at that power is 2% THD.



It is also a myth that pipes have poor impulse characteristics. While this shows a little over hang the result is superior.


At least for me, and I've been designing pipes for 60 years now, this is the most ideal bass loading I know. Unfortunately it is up against practicalities.

It should be noted that these pipes are doing this with standard audio drivers, not sub drivers. One speaker was used containing two 10" SEAS Excel metal coned drivers.
 
L

ljbrandt

Audioholic Intern
Fwiw, I haven't heard the MB Quart Vera sub, but it's been well reviewed. If it's anything like the bookshelfs I just got, it's a steal and will impress much beyond anything else you might find for less than a grand. It's on closeout and in your price range. If you're in the U.S. I highly recommend adding it to your list for consideration.

MB Quart sub

I think it's got one active 12" and two passive 10" radiators in a sealed enclosure, if I recall correctly, and a reasonably flat response. The specs claim it weighs 128lbs. It's worth googling in any case.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk 2
+1 Probably hard to find anything comparable in this price range, especially for music.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Fwiw, I haven't heard the MB Quart Vera sub, but it's been well reviewed. If it's anything like the bookshelfs I just got, it's a steal and will impress much beyond anything else you might find for less than a grand. It's on closeout and in your price range. If you're in the U.S. I highly recommend adding it to your list for consideration.

MB Quart sub

I think it's got one active 12" and two passive 10" radiators in a sealed enclosure, if I recall correctly, and a reasonably flat response. The specs claim it weighs 128lbs. It's worth googling in any case.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk 2
It is not a sealed sub. The passive radiators take the place of a port in a vented enclosure. The math and performance is almost identical to a vented sub, except the bass falls off quicker and depending on the design of the passive radiators, distortion can and often is higher.

The real problem is that the manufacturer gives no meaningful spec. Frequency response is quoted at 20 to 150 Hz, but it could be 30 db down at 20 Hz. That is why you need objective measurement before buying a sub.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
For good, huh? :D

I would get a passive sub. You would have to use your own amp, but like passive speakers, they may last longer than subs with internal plate amps. Ideas would be RBH or Funk passive subs.
 
DannyA

DannyA

Audioholic
I have a PSA XS15 in a medium size room. 90% music, 10% movies. I was going to buy 2 (and still might) but right now I have the single sub sounding pretty darn good. I think it is a high quality product for a pretty reasonable price which includes shipping (in the USA) and a 30 day return policy. All but a few components are made in the USA. Some components simply are not available in the USA. The one thing I have mentioned before is the XS15 only comes in one finish. Matte black.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
My interest has resurrected when I began reading about an older product from Paradigm, the Servo 15. I see it described often as musical (in other words tight and accurate). Another word used to described it was impact. Its ability to deliver sudden output and stop just as quick as it began solely based on the signal. No doubt in my mind that being both sealed and using a competent servo. I rarely see them come up in the used market and wonder if there's anything in today's market that has similar characteristics.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
My interest has resurrected when I began reading about an older product from Paradigm, the Servo 15. I see it described often as musical (in other words tight and accurate). Another word used to described it was impact. Its ability to deliver sudden output and stop just as quick as it began solely based on the signal. No doubt in my mind that being both sealed and using a competent servo. I rarely see them come up in the used market and wonder if there's anything in today's market that has similar characteristics.
Of your original choices, the Rythmik seems to fit the bill pretty closely, being sealed & utilizing a servo, not to mention having a very good reputation for sound quality.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I own a Rythmik LV12-R which is their entry level sub, ported design using a 12" driver. It will dig down into the high teens and is extremely articulate in its bass response. I've heard bass notes change during scenes in LOTR that I just didn't hear with my PSB. It also has slam capability having rattled an empty can into the sink. My HT setup is in the basement directly below the kitchen. It too is a servo design.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I guess I hadn't really drew that line of logic that would have taken me to Rythmik. It seems like the most logical choice.
 

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