Looking for a good long run HDMI cable for my new JVC projector.

[TLS Guy]

Sorry for never getting back to this thread. Great solution! I have had zero issues.

Thanks for the update.

 

[sebna]

This voltage injector - on which side of the cable is it going? Pre / AVR or PJ?

I guess it would make sense if it would go on PJ side?

Also why hybrid and not pure optical cable?

 

[TLS Guy]

This voltage injector - on which side of the cable is it going? Pre / AVR or PJ?

I guess it would make sense if it would go on PJ side?

Also why hybrid and not pure optical cable?

No, the inserter goes at the receiver end. For Heaven's sake don't put it at the PJ end or you will blow everything up. Remember those cables are DIRECTIONAL, and the arrows must point away from the receiver and to the projector.

The audio is copper as the audio is not high bandwidth like the video, and the eARC connections sends digital audio both ways. The video only goes one way.

 

[sebna]

No, the inserter goes at the receiver end. For Heaven's sake don't put it at the PJ end or you will blow everything up. Remember those cables are DIRECTIONAL, and the arrows must point away from the receiver and to the projector.

The audio is copper as the audio is not high bandwidth like the video, and the eARC connections sends digital audio both ways. The video only goes one way.

Hmm... I am asking as I read that those optical cables, from my limited understanding, put electrical demand and strain on both ends of the connection and JVC projectors are known to have problems with them with, in some cases, failing HDMI boards etc.

I understand that one end of cable is an active optical emiter (AVR side) and the other end, as a optical receiver, should have lower power demand but still it has to draw from PJ's HDMI port to power itself? Unless it is powered by emitter part (so the other end of it) via copper part of the cable run?

Any thoughts on that?

Ruipro are quite cheap, is that correct? About 100 USD for 12-15m 8k version?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hmm... I am asking as I read that those optical cables, from my limited understanding, put electrical demand and strain on both ends of the connection and JVC projectors are known to have problems with them with, in some cases, failing HDMI boards etc.

I understand that one end of cable is an active optical emiter (AVR side) and the other end, as a optical receiver, should have lower power demand but still it has to draw from PJ's HDMI port to power itself? Unless it is powered by emitter part (so the other end of it) via copper part of the cable run?

Any thoughts on that?

Ruipro are quite cheap, is that correct? About 100 USD for 12-15m 8k version?

That is not true. The voltage inserter powers the converters at both ends.

 

[sebna]

That is not true. The voltage inserter powers the converters at both ends.

How do you know? Why are you so sure?

Well I guess that is possible with hybrid cables but not really with pure Optical?

 

[TLS Guy]

How do you know? Why are you so sure?

Well I guess that is possible with hybrid cables but not really with pure Optical?

There is +5volts on pin 18 of an HDMI cable. By spec. that has to be present on both ends by HDMI spec.. As I explained above only the video is converted to optical and back. Pin 17 is ground. Conversion to optical takes place at the input end, and the opposite at the receiving end. That is why these hybrid cables are directional.

The problem with hybrid cables is that the power required for these converters exceeds HDMI spec.by a substantial margin. Then it becomes Russian Roulette as to whether or not they will blow up the sending units HDMI board. They can and have. That is why I recommend a voltage inserter.

 

[sebna]

There is +5volts on pin 18 of an HDMI cable. By spec. that has to be present on both ends by HDMI spec.. As I explained above only the video is converted to optical and back. Pin 17 is ground. Conversion to optical takes place at the input end, and the opposite at the receiving end. That is why these hybrid cables are directional.

The problem with hybrid cables is that the power required for these converters exceeds HDMI spec.by a substantial margin. Then it becomes Russian Roulette as to whether or not they will blow up the sending units HDMI board. They can and have. That is why I recommend a voltage inserter.

I appreciate your time but you have not answered the question.

Optical cable cannot pass electricity so how does, powered by the injector, emitter end powers receiver end? It must be doing it over data part of the copper of the hybrid cable? It just seems so much more plausible that receiving end grabs its power from PJ HDMI board.

 

[TLS Guy]

I appreciate your time but you have not answered the question.

Optical cable cannot pass electricity so how does, powered by the injector, emitter end powers receiver end? It must be doing it over data part of the copper of the hybrid cable? It just seems so much more plausible that receiving end grabs its power from PJ HDMI board.

That I is why they are HYBRID cables. They are copper and fiber optic, ONLY the video data is sent via the optical cable, as that has the lions share of the bandwidth. EVERYTHING else is via copper. Optical HDMI cable are still required to conform to standard, and the +5 Volts on pin 18 still has to be present on both ends of the cable. You can not have a DC voltage on a fiber cable, so that is why these cables have to be hybrid. However, since they draw more power from the HDMI board than the spec, is why these cables can not be certified. That is why I recommend a voltage inserter, and you only need ONE and not TWO.

If you don't understand this now, then there is no help for you.

 

[highfigh]

For a cable this length a hybrid cable is absolutely the way to go. These use fiber optics for the picture and copper for the rest. I purchased a 35 ft Ruipro Cable and can recommend it without reservation.

I do recommend though, with either active copper or hybrid, that you do not power them from the HDMI port. These cables draw far more power than what HDMI boards are specified for. This is why they can not be certified. So you really don't know if you are risking damage or not from expensive and fragile HDMI boards. If you power the cable externally then you have no worries on that score.

We had a good discussion about this when I was planning my studio. I feel from the results I came to the correct conclusion.

I completely agree about not using the HDMI port to power the cable- HDMI was poorly thought out at the beginning and the propellerheads who are in charge of it have added far too much to an already bad design. ONLY use powered cables that require a separate power source.

Yes, the power section of an HDMI board can be damaged by trying to supply too much Current. Also, the design uses a very small window of Voltage that allows this to work and if that drops too far, audio or video can be lost, the screen may be one color or it may have streaks.

From the link- "The HDMI Spec allows a tolerance of ±0.3 Volt in the spec as per picture below and will sync between 4.7v to 5.3v.".

HDMI Specifications And Technical Info | HDMI Voltages, HDMI Wire Layout, HDMI Channels DDC, TMDS And CEC

HDMI has emerged as a standard for high-definition audio and video transmission, and has increased in popularity on platforms such as the following:

www.hdcabling.co.za

 

[highfigh]

I appreciate your time but you have not answered the question.

Optical cable cannot pass electricity so how does, powered by the injector, emitter end powers receiver end? It must be doing it over data part of the copper of the hybrid cable? It just seems so much more plausible that receiving end grabs its power from PJ HDMI board.

A normal HDMI cable has 19 pins and only a small number are actually carrying video- the link I posted shows which pins carry the voltage needed to provide synch, CEC, clock, ground, etc.

 

[sebna]

I had a lengthy conversation with Ruipro and they claim completely different things to what is a common knowledge in this thread. Confusing.

I bought Ruipro certified HDMI 2.1 cable, even thought I completely don't need the 2.1 part (my PJ is only partially meeting 2.0b) because it is certified and if to believe them and the standardisation process it's power draw has been optimised and minimised to meet HDMI specification.

Ruipro said their new certified cables have the lowest power requirements of any of their cables and even that they come with injector supplied as part of the package they don't recommend using it until faced with problems.

They also said that injector can be used on either side of the cable and that the recommendation is to actually use it on PJ side...

They also explained that using injector when not needed (which is a vast majority of cases, according to them), the injector will not be providing any power but just degrading the signal by being there as another link in the chain.

So there you go ... We spoke for about an hour, about different scenarios, failures etc.

They also claimed their cables run correct voltage. I would like to see the article that measured differently and show it to them to see what would be their explanation.

If somebody could link it that would be great.

Finally they said that occasionally injector might be needed AVR side when there is a multitude of devices connected to it and it's bus is running out of juice.

But more commonly PJs are having issues with eARC with optical cables (so everything is working as advertised but eARC) in which case, injector PJ side, usually resolves the problem (which I am guessing might be down to optical cable loading PJ bus to that extent that eARC so LAN module has not enough power to correctly run eARC protocol and functions).

As usual the truth most likely lies somewhere in between those two camps.

I have few days to do more research and decide which way I will be using my cable, but as it is certified I think I might give it a shot without injector? Or am I brave here or just plain stupid?

 

[lovinthehd]

Just to start, since HDMI 2.1 isn't an HDMI cable designation, what does that mean?

 

[TLS Guy]

I had a lengthy conversation with Ruipro and they claim completely different things to what is a common knowledge in this thread. Confusing.

I bought Ruipro certified HDMI 2.1 cable, even thought I completely don't need the 2.1 part (my PJ is only partially meeting 2.0b) because it is certified and if to believe them and the standardisation process it's power draw has been optimised and minimised to meet HDMI specification.

Ruipro said their new certified cables have the lowest power requirements of any of their cables and even that they come with injector supplied as part of the package they don't recommend using it until faced with problems.

They also said that injector can be used on either side of the cable and that the recommendation is to actually use it on PJ side...

They also explained that using injector when not needed (which is a vast majority of cases, according to them), the injector will not be providing any power but just degrading the signal by being there as another link in the chain.

So there you go ... We spoke for about an hour, about different scenarios, failures etc.

They also claimed their cables run correct voltage. I would like to see the article that measured differently and show it to them to see what would be their explanation.

If somebody could link it that would be great.

Finally they said that occasionally injector might be needed AVR side when there is a multitude of devices connected to it and it's bus is running out of juice.

But more commonly PJs are having issues with eARC with optical cables (so everything is working as advertised but eARC) in which case, injector PJ side, usually resolves the problem (which I am guessing might be down to optical cable loading PJ bus to that extent that eARC so LAN module has not enough power to correctly run eARC protocol and functions).

As usual the truth most likely lies somewhere in between those two camps.

I have few days to do more research and decide which way I will be using my cable, but as it is certified I think I might give it a shot without injector? Or am I brave here or just plain stupid?

He has told you a half truth. In order to power those cables you need an HDMI 2.1A port, now known as a power port. Until I just looked into this I did not know such a port existed. It was introduced just this year. The new spec, for 2.1A is to provide 300 mW of power. The Ruipro cables require 250 mW of power, so do conform to the new HDMI 2.1A spec. However most equipment now in use, including my three year old AVP have standard HDMI 2.1 ports which are not HDMI 2.1A power ports.
This has enabled those Ruipro cables to now be HTPC certified. When I bought my Ruipro cable they were not, and could not be certified.

The problem with the advice Ruipro gave you is that if you have trouble is not the correct advice, as trouble will be a blown HDMI board which is very expensive trouble.

So, if you use active hybrid cables then you can dispense with a voltage inserter as long as one of the ports the cable is connected to is a new HDMI 2.1A port. If not then it is wise to use a voltage inserter.

 

[sebna]

He has told you a half truth. In order to power those cables you need an HDMI 2.1A port, now known as a power port. Until I just looked into this I did not know such a port existed. It was introduced just this year. The new spec, for 2.1A is to provide 300 mW of power. The Ruipro cables require 250 mW of power, so do conform to the new HDMI 2.1A spec. However most equipment now in use, including my three year old AVP have standard HDMI 2.1 ports which are not HDMI 2.1A power ports.
This has enabled those Ruipro cables to now be HTPC certified. When I bought my Ruipro cable they were not, and could not be certified.

The problem with the advice Ruipro gave you is that if you have trouble is not the correct advice, as trouble will be a blown HDMI board which is very expensive trouble.

So, if you use active hybrid cables then you can dispense with a voltage inserter as long as one of the ports the cable is connected to is a new HDMI 2.1A port. If not then it is wise to use a voltage inserter.

Great info. Thank you for that. Needless to say I have cancelled my order and I am back to drawing board as I can get Ruipro 2.0b version for 1/3rd of the price of certified 2.1 and my PJ supports only 2.0 and not even all functions of 2.0b...

Where from did you get 250mv? And I wonder if that means that their certified is using even less although I am sure still over what older than 2.1a boards are designed to supply.

When you say that you are using injector with your RP, is it the one which came with it in the box? And if so how do you power it? They suggested I can just plug it into PJ's or AVR usb port.

Which exactly version of their cable are you using and what is your display if you don't mind me asking?

In my case is there any reasonable reason to go for 2.1 certified over 2.0b when my PJ does not support 2.1? I don't care about future proofing as by the time I will need 2.1 the 2.1 cable will cost what 2b costs now so 30% of 2.1.

Thanks

EDIT: I can see your system in the sig now, which was not present on my mobile.

 

[sebna]

He has told you a half truth. In order to power those cables you need an HDMI 2.1A port, now known as a power port. Until I just looked into this I did not know such a port existed. It was introduced just this year. The new spec, for 2.1A is to provide 300 mW of power. The Ruipro cables require 250 mW of power, so do conform to the new HDMI 2.1A spec. However most equipment now in use, including my three year old AVP have standard HDMI 2.1 ports which are not HDMI 2.1A power ports.
This has enabled those Ruipro cables to now be HTPC certified. When I bought my Ruipro cable they were not, and could not be certified.

The problem with the advice Ruipro gave you is that if you have trouble is not the correct advice, as trouble will be a blown HDMI board which is very expensive trouble.

So, if you use active hybrid cables then you can dispense with a voltage inserter as long as one of the ports the cable is connected to is a new HDMI 2.1A port. If not then it is wise to use a voltage inserter.

Where from did you take 250mW number for RuiPro cables?

Other user claims that HDMI (pre 2.1a) supports 50mA. 50mA = 250mW...

He also claims that 8K versions of RuiPro take as much 680mW which is out of spec but 2.0b are up to 250mW, so if that would be truly the case 2.0b cables would not need injector other than when they do, because something is not working correctly.

 

[lovinthehd]

Great info. Thank you for that. Needless to say I have cancelled my order and I am back to drawing board as I can get Ruipro 2.0b version for 1/3rd of the price of certified 2.1 and my PJ supports only 2.0 and not even all functions of 2.0b...

Where from did you get 250mv? And I wonder if that means that their certified is using even less although I am sure still over what older than 2.1a boards are designed to supply.

When you say that you are using injector with your RP, is it the one which came with it in the box? And if so how do you power it? They suggested I can just plug it into PJ's or AVR usb port.

Which exactly version of their cable are you using and what is your display if you don't mind me asking?

In my case is there any reasonable reason to go for 2.1 certified over 2.0b when my PJ does not support 2.1? I don't care about future proofing as by the time I will need 2.1 the 2.1 cable will cost what 2b costs now so 30% of 2.1.

Thanks

EDIT: I can see your system in the sig now, which was not present on my mobile.

You realize hdmi cable is by bandwidth/distance, not particularly matching up to an hdmi hardware version (cable isn't hardware in this sense)?

 

[sebna]

You

You realize hdmi cable is by bandwidth/distance, not particularly matching up to an hdmi hardware version (cable isn't hardware in this sense)?

The bandwidth available is defined by HDMI standard? I am not sure what you are trying to say.

You need 18gbps you go for 2.0b you need more you go for 2.1 or higher when the times comes for it.

And all the supported functions are defined by the same HDMI standard so if you don't need 4k at 120hz you don't need bandwidth for it and so you don't need 2.1...

 

[lovinthehd]

You

The bandwidth available is defined by HDMI standard? I am not sure what you are trying to say.

You need 18gbps you go for 2.0b you need more you go for 2.1 or higher when the times comes for it.

And all the supported functions are defined by the same HDMI standard so if you don't need 4k at 120hz you don't need bandwidth for it and so you don't need 2.1...

I'm saying hdmi never used the hardware designation for cabling, just bandwidth....and there are some certified cables for the highest speed cables....but no guarantee just because it mentions 2.0 or a variant that it actually matches up to the feature set as the retailer has defined it....determine the bandwidth you need for what you want to do and buy a certified cable for that....

 

[sebna]

nvm