LMS-5400 Funkywaves Build

[Beatmatcher247]

I have a friend looking to do a LMS-5400 funkywaves build. He doesn't doubt the LMS-5400 sub 30 Hz performance. How is it in the 30 Hz - 80 Hz? He thinks quite a few other subs best it here. Would you recommend supplementing it with a midbass woofer?

 

[GranteedEV]

He doesn't doubt the LMS-5400 sub 30 Hz performance. How is it in the 30 Hz - 80 Hz?

Assuming it's sufficiently damped it's dictated entirely by room acoustics and how you choose to EQ it. plain and simple. It's a flat out ULTRA high end driver with low inductance and flat response out to 400+hz.

Its sub 30hz performance is also a function of how you EQ it and the alignment you put it in. It's not too efficient at LF even though it has a ton of clean excursion, so you need to add a ton of eq boost to get LF in a sealed box. I think that unless you really want the subsonics of multiple drivers, this driver is best suited to a passive radiator setup like the 18.3 tuned around 15hz

- also, imo "midbass modules" are silly. they just increase complexity. Use speakers that can produce upper bass, and multiple good subs setup well.

You do want multiple drivers to have the least room affected sound, but not because the driver (or any other quality driver) can't produce midbass.

The distortion on this driver might be too low though. there's very few cues of when the best drivers are even running, when setup properly. bass by nature is just very low frequencies we can barely hear. a lot of what we perceive as speaker bass is the heavy 2nd order HD complement so adjusting to no bass distortion can be difficult for people.

 

[Warpdrv]

I have a friend looking to do a LMS-5400 funkywaves build. He doesn't doubt the LMS-5400 sub 30 Hz performance. How is it in the 30 Hz - 80 Hz? He thinks quite a few other subs best it here. Would you recommend supplementing it with a midbass woofer?

You will find no better driver for performance from bottom end to top end - and I mean all the way up past 500hz... No Lie...
I agree with GranteedEV 100% - a good driver shouldn't need a mid bass module, I think they are silly as well.... The LMS will perform well over 100hz extremely well, offering super clean midbass performance... I had them crossed over to my mains at 160hz and was blown away, but lowered that to 120 now even with my capable mains... In my small room - I cross at 100hz with my single LMS and suffer no localization issues... truly amazing performance with only 1900w going into it... EP2500

I have a copy of the klippel testing report of that particular transducer.... It is an incredible driver that is almost flat up past 500hz with a tiny little hiccup in the 300-400hz range IIRC... http://www.klippel.de/


There is a reason I have 8 of these drivers no matter what the cost they were... 7 that are in use and 1 for any issues. Not many subwoofer drivers can present this kind of linearity....

 

[its phillip]

amazing performance with only 1900w going into it

I thought this was kind of funny. That is A LOT to most people

 

[Warpdrv]

I only added that statement - because even though these drivers can and will handle much more power it isn't always necessary - a doubling of power from 2000w to 4000w will only yield about 3db depending upon the enclosure. So if your not looking to squeeze every mm of excursion out of them, its safer for the driver to prevent damage to stick with a lesser amount of power...

4000w will take them to the edge and depending on how much EQ applied - may cause them to bottom out...

 

[ndskurfer]

I have a friend looking to do a LMS-5400 funkywaves build. He doesn't doubt the LMS-5400 sub 30 Hz performance. How is it in the 30 Hz - 80 Hz? He thinks quite a few other subs best it here. Would you recommend supplementing it with a midbass woofer?

Beatmatcher247, thanks for starting this thread for me!

A little background:
I spent some time over at the OP’s house in helping him set up all of his equipment, and most recently running sweeps and finding optimal room placement. I feel that we found the best solution for his environment, and I have to admit, I am very envious of his system running those dual F113's.

My current position:
I have been running a single SVS PC13 in my system the past 3 years, but I have never been satisfied. Over a year ago I bought all the tools needed to run REW, including a DSP1124 for equalization. While I got my system to be linear up to the crossover of 80hz, I don't have the "impact" and "pressure" that I feel in Beatmatcher247's room, not even close.

I know this is a very unfair comparison: different rooms (although his room is a bit larger) and the obvious 2 f113's vs my 1 pc13. My room is roughly 2,700 cubic feet with 2 doorway openings to the stairs.

My goal:
I would like to get to the point where I feel the bass like in his room, hence my quest in order to get there. I currently do not feel the pressure, not even as I walk around the room to various points in the room.

What I’ve tried:
I have tried the HSU MBM-12 (near-field and far-field), which I still own, but will be going up for sale soon. I have read many positive and negative comments regarding this approach, but I had to try it myself. My system did benefit from this after getting integrated properly into my system, but I don’t see this approach as the solution. I feel there is a unique audience for this product, but limited, as near-field did give an extra little kick.

I did add an Outlaw LFM-1 for a short while (borrowed from my brother), but I did not notice any benefit while paired with the PC13.

The PC13 has been in every possible position in my room Eq’ed at some point during the past 3 years. It is currently behind my front right speaker, which sounds and maps the best via REW. The second best placement is behind the front left speaker.

What I’m considering:
I have been considering building 2 dual opposed AV15h subs (4 drivers) to go in the front 2 corners – that is if they are available at some time in the future. I am now also considering 2 18” LMS ultra’s, as this gets much praise as well. I may try to build the enclosures myself to save on cost.

Suggestions, comments, input??

 

[ndskurfer]

I think the right way to describe the OP's system, it plays with Authority.

I want that!

 

[GranteedEV]

I have been running a single SVS PC13 in my system the past 3 years, but I have never been satisfied. Over a year ago I bought all the tools needed to run REW, including a DSP1124 for equalization. While I got my system to be linear up to the crossover of 80hz, I don't have the "impact" and "pressure" that I feel in Beatmatcher247's room, not even close.

I guess the first question is, what is the bass performance of your mains at the listening position? What kind of output do THEY produce and with what ? Bass isn't just produced by subwoofers, "punch" can go right up to around 250hz. Speakers with inadequate baffle step compensation or placed with a big frequency response dip will sound bass light, no matter what your sub is. Play around with placement of your couch and mains as well!

The second question is, have you tried EQing to a house curve of some sort, rather than EQing a single sub flat? I don't know what the frequency response of the fathoms is, but that might be what you are prefering.

Third, I agree, multiple subs is the way to go plain and simple. Consider six IXL-18.2.2

 

[billy p]

Beatmatcher247, thanks for starting this thread for me!

A little background:
I spent some time over at the OP’s house in helping him set up all of his equipment, and most recently running sweeps and finding optimal room placement. I feel that we found the best solution for his environment, and I have to admit, I am very envious of his system running those dual F113's.

My current position:
I have been running a single SVS PC13 in my system the past 3 years, but I have never been satisfied. Over a year ago I bought all the tools needed to run REW, including a DSP1124 for equalization. While I got my system to be linear up to the crossover of 80hz, I don't have the "impact" and "pressure" that I feel in Beatmatcher247's room, not even close.

I know this is a very unfair comparison: different rooms (although his room is a bit larger) and the obvious 2 f113's vs my 1 pc13. My room is roughly 2,700 cubic feet with 2 doorway openings to the stairs.

My goal:
I would like to get to the point where I feel the bass like in his room, hence my quest in order to get there. I currently do not feel the pressure, not even as I walk around the room to various points in the room.

What I’ve tried:
I have tried the HSU MBM-12 (near-field and far-field), which I still own, but will be going up for sale soon. I have read many positive and negative comments regarding this approach, but I had to try it myself. My system did benefit from this after getting integrated properly into my system, but I don’t see this approach as the solution. I feel there is a unique audience for this product, but limited, as near-field did give an extra little kick.

I did add an Outlaw LFM-1 for a short while (borrowed from my brother), but I did not notice any benefit while paired with the PC13.

The PC13 has been in every possible position in my room Eq’ed at some point during the past 3 years. It is currently behind my front right speaker, which sounds and maps the best via REW. The second best placement is behind the front left speaker.

What I’m considering:
I have been considering building 2 dual opposed AV15h subs (4 drivers) to go in the front 2 corners – that is if they are available at some time in the future. I am now also considering 2 18” LMS ultra’s, as this gets much praise as well. I may try to build the enclosures myself to save on cost.

Suggestions, comments, input??

Not much to add here but I had the opportunity to listen to another members dual...dual opposed av15's a short time ago and it was from another realm. The way they presurized his room was surreal...the build up makes you feel woozy just before it slams into you....

 

[ndskurfer]

I guess the first question is, what is the bass performance of your mains at the listening position? What kind of output do THEY produce and with what ? Bass isn't just produced by subwoofers, "punch" can go right up to around 250hz. Speakers with inadequate baffle step compensation or placed with a big frequency response dip will sound bass light, no matter what your sub is. Play around with placement of your couch and mains as well!

The second question is, have you tried EQing to a house curve of some sort, rather than EQing a single sub flat? I don't know what the frequency response of the fathoms is, but that might be what you are prefering.

Third, I agree, multiple subs is the way to go plain and simple. Consider six IXL-18.2.2

Thanks for your repsonse. I am running Paradigm Studio 60's up front with little flexibility for placement.

My sectional (which I plan on replacing) is currently against the back wall, but I tend to pull a club chair in front of the couch when it is just me, which helps some. I will be selling the sectional to make room for some palliser chairs sometime in the future which I will be able to pull a bit more forward in a fixed position.

I can post some sweeps when I get home to show the integration, I think they appear ok, not much different than beatmatcher247's as we dialed his in, but he is running some bigger mains than me. Also, I have 2 presets built into my behringer that I have dialed in: flat & a house curve with a 10db slope downward to 80hz from 16hz. I prefer the second preset, but still not the same experience that I got from those fathoms...

 

[ndskurfer]

Not much to add here but I had the opportunity to listen to another members dual...dual opposed av15's a short time ago and it was from another realm. The way they presurized his room was surreal...the build up makes you feel woozy just before it slams into you....

pbc's build?

 

[billy p]

pbc's build?

Yeah...it was Steve's set up....

 

[ndskurfer]

Yeah...it was Steve's set up....

Was he running his ultra? It was his build that has me looking at the av15h's. He is also in a smaller room from what I read though.

 

[billy p]

Was he running his ultra? It was his build that has me looking at the av15h's. He is also in a smaller room from what I read though.

I help him return the ultra that day and yes...he was essentially using the ultra as a MBM..... His room is slightly smaller but it opens up to the kitchen and foyer from what I can recall....it was simply an amazing set up with his S2's resting atop the subs.