Learning From the Best

[AudioFloyd]

Hello all!

I have always loved home audio but am just now taking the time to really learn and understand it. I was looking for some advice, and if possible the logic behind said advice so I can understand why what is suggested is the best course of action. With that said here is my current setup:

Receiver: Marantz Sr-5012
Amp: Pioneer Series 20 M-25*
Front Speaks: (4) Kenwood 888D's
Center Speaker: B&W CM Centre
Surround: (4) Boston Acoustic SoundWare Cubes

First, I will say I know it is a hodgepodge mix of components and speakers, but I have always had eclectic taste and I really enjoy how my system sounds. The main reason I am posting and the reason for the asterisk next to the M-25 is that I just received and hooked it up today. Previous to today I was using a Technics SE-A1000 in place of the M-25. I had a few questions that I was hoping someone may be able to assist me with:

-Currently I have two of the 888's running off the Marantz which is rated at 100W per channel. The Marantz also runs the surround and center. The other two 888's are run off the amp which is fed from the front speaker pre-out. What I am wondering is if this is the optimal setup for what I have, or if I should wire the system in another fashion? Is the M-25 (rated at 120W per channel) superior enough to the Marantz that I should run all four 888's wired parallel from the M-25 and sacrifice the 40W I would lose from my current configuration of two front speakers from the Marantz and two from the M-25?

-I know the M-25 is class AB so it is always has juice running through it so to speak. When nothing is playing through the stereo I hear a sort of static coming from only the two 888's connected to the M-25. Sometimes I can hear it picking TV or radio signals as well when nothing is being played. Is this because it is AB and always on so to speak? Also, I have the M-25 plugged into a surge protector with other components etc, is that an issue, should it be directly pulling from the wall, or its own surge?

-Lastly, a guy I know already offered me more than I paid to buy the M-25 from me. What are your opinions as far as the M-25 compared to the Technics SE-A1000 as far as quality of sound? I think I can hear a noticeable increase in quality, but of course that's what I want to hear, and as I can't readily switch back and forth between the two amps, it is difficult to really compare the sound quality of the different amps.

I have include a picture of my current setup below.

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to respond. Your knowledge and assistance are most appreciated. Please feel free to comment on any part of my setup as I am here to learn and am aware of how little I know. Thank you again!

 

[-Jim-]

Hi AudioFloyd.

Welcome to the Forum. I think we need to understand what you are tying to achieve rather than commenting on the differences between those two amps. (But I know lots of the gang here will have a comment or two.!)

I'm puzzled by the curious stacking of your Mains

, and also why two per side anyway? These are vintage speakers, and I'd suggest you replace the capacitors in the crossovers (if they haven't been done already) before doing anything else. They should be very easy to light up to very loud levels as their Sensitivity is 98dB - so either Amp should be fine.

 

[lovinthehd]

Why are you using a pair of speakers for each the left and right like that? That's generally not recommended. In the end it's preference, but there are acoustic reasons not to do that (comb filtering). At first thought you had one pair set up as wides or heights or something. Did you double up surrounds, too?

Why the old external amps particularly? Why did you change the amp? The two amps (your Pioneer/Marantz) are relatively close in spec, why do you think the Pioneer is superior to the Marantz? Consider it takes a doubling of power to make a 3dB spl difference...20W in your case translates to less than 1dB (.8 dB). Your avr is AB, too, fwiw. Do the amps actually sound that different? Not my experience with solid state amps generally.

Sounds like you're picking up some noise, possibly thru the interconnects...maybe they lack sufficient shielding. Maybe its the amp. Doubt it's the surge protector but you could compare by plugging it into it's own receptacle, too.

Lots of helpful articles on the site, look up at the top of the page and click on AV Research.

Love the pic on the screen of the bricks for your photo, LOL Welcome to AH!

PS The speakers were intended to stand up, not laid flat on their sides like that.

 

[shadyJ]

PS The speakers were intended to stand up, not laid flat on their sides like that.

Looking at the driver layout of the front of that speaker, I don't think it matters much which side they are standing on. That speaker setup break all kinds of rules for accurate sound reproduction, but if the OP enjoys the sound, that is what matters most.

 

[lovinthehd]

Looking at the driver layout of the front of that speaker, I don't think it matters much which side they are standing on. That speaker setup break all kinds of rules for accurate sound reproduction, but if the OP enjoys the sound, that is what matters most.

At first I thought it was a vent but it's a horn, looks like the horn just might be better on its side now that I look more closely?

 

[shadyJ]

At first I thought it was a vent but it's a horn, looks like the horn just might be better on its side now that I look more closely?

The horn would be better aligned horizontally. But in that baffle, that puts it low to the ground for that kind of orientation. This is an old school speaker before they know about stuff like directivity matching. The engineers were probably happy just to not get any wide nulls on the direct axis and left it at that.

 

[AudioFloyd]

I'm shocked that you all responded, thank you for being so willing to help!

Jim-
My intention is to have the best sound from my home audio system. That being said my ears are untrained and I imagine sometimes I equate loudness with quality although I know the vast difference. The main reason I like to be able to turn it up is I honestly feel that is the best way to hear all the subtle nuances of a song that I don't hear at lower volumes. Is there a better way to hear the music as it was intended? I have a wall full of headphones as well because you can hear every note with a great pair of headphones and a headphone amp!

I stacked them as they are for aesthetic reasons to be honest. I was a designer in the past so although sound quality is my number one concern, I like to try and make things look pleasing as well.

Can I replace the capacitors myself, is there any way I can check if it has been done? I may not be knowledgeable, but I am handy.

Lovinthehd-
I have two per side because I really don't know what I am doing and when I found the speakers the guy had four of them in mint condition, so four I bought. I didn't know where else I could possibly put such a large front speaker than in the front, so there they lie. Is there another place where the speaker might be better? I did not double up the surrounds.

I like the old amps because I still believe they built things with more care and better parts then, plus I am a child of the 80/90's so retro/vintage calls to me. I didn't go vintage with my receiver as I think the technology aspect is more important there. I wish my answers had more substance to them. I feel foolish even on the beginner board.

As for the interference I am hearing the amp has a place for a ground wire right next to the speaker connections because the power plug is not grounded. What would I use for a ground wire in this case, and what in a home could I ground it to?

Thanks for the compliment of the bricks, I thought it was funny anyhow.

shadyJ-
I'm not sure I know what I enjoy now that I realize how backwards my system is. I mean I have spent a majority of my life listening to music, working in nightclubs, and putting together stereos that defy logic apparently. With that said I'm not destroying the music or looking for pounding bass at all. I only have one 10" sub hidden behind one of the stacks that's only at half volume. What I like most is quality sound and to be honest despite my lack of knowledge I really believe the system sounds good. Anyone who has heard it loves it, but they are likely as untrained as I am. I would agree with you no matter the system if the individual who owns it likes the way it sounds then that is the only thing that truly matters. Still, dogs like their food until they get some table scraps, so maybe I am just ignorant to what I really want this to sound like. I am open to any and all suggestions. I have started going through different posts and reading across the site, but nothing beats individualized help from pros such as yourselves. If anyone happens to be, or know someone in the Chicago area who is knowledgeable about home audio I would be happy to hire someone to come help me with this mess. I just haven't found anyone who seemed like the really knew what they were talking about and would be willing to come assist me.

Thank you all again, I truly appreciate you taking the time to try and give me the help I need!

 

[shadyJ]

I'm shocked that you all responded, thank you for being so willing to help!

Jim-
My intention is to have the best sound from my home audio system. That being said my ears are untrained and I imagine sometimes I equate loudness with quality although I know the vast difference. The main reason I like to be able to turn it up is I honestly feel that is the best way to hear all the subtle nuances of a song that I don't hear at lower volumes. Is there a better way to hear the music as it was intended? I have a wall full of headphones as well because you can hear every note with a great pair of headphones and a headphone amp!

I stacked them as they are for aesthetic reasons to be honest. I was a designer in the past so although sound quality is my number one concern, I like to try and make things look pleasing as well.

Can I replace the capacitors myself, is there any way I can check if it has been done? I may not be knowledgeable, but I am handy.

Lovinthehd-
I have two per side because I really don't know what I am doing and when I found the speakers the guy had four of them in mint condition, so four I bought. I didn't know where else I could possibly put such a large front speaker than in the front, so there they lie. Is there another place where the speaker might be better? I did not double up the surrounds.

I like the old amps because I still believe they built things with more care and better parts then, plus I am a child of the 80/90's so retro/vintage calls to me. I didn't go vintage with my receiver as I think the technology aspect is more important there. I wish my answers had more substance to them. I feel foolish even on the beginner board.

As for the interference I am hearing the amp has a place for a ground wire right next to the speaker connections because the power plug is not grounded. What would I use for a ground wire in this case, and what in a home could I ground it to?

Thanks for the compliment of the bricks, I thought it was funny anyhow.

shadyJ-
I'm not sure I know what I enjoy now that I realize how backwards my system is. I mean I have spent a majority of my life listening to music, working in nightclubs, and putting together stereos that defy logic apparently. With that said I'm not destroying the music or looking for pounding bass at all. I only have one 10" sub hidden behind one of the stacks that's only at half volume. What I like most is quality sound and to be honest despite my lack of knowledge I really believe the system sounds good. Anyone who has heard it loves it, but they are likely as untrained as I am. I would agree with you no matter the system if the individual who owns it likes the way it sounds then that is the only thing that truly matters. Still, dogs like their food until they get some table scraps, so maybe I am just ignorant to what I really want this to sound like. I am open to any and all suggestions. I have started going through different posts and reading across the site, but nothing beats individualized help from pros such as yourselves. If anyone happens to be, or know someone in the Chicago area who is knowledgeable about home audio I would be happy to hire someone to come help me with this mess. I just haven't found anyone who seemed like the really knew what they were talking about and would be willing to come assist me.

Thank you all again, I truly appreciate you taking the time to try and give me the help I need!

Hey Audiofloyd, I would imagine that system would have a very 'big' sound, but probably not a very precise sound. There will inevitably be lots of comb-filtering and interference artifacts because there are so many drivers spread out from each other yet they are playing the same thing. Ground bounce interference would also be a concern with this setup to a much greater extant than normal loudspeaker setups. And that is all beside the fact that the speakers themselves have some very real shortcomings due to the era in which they were designed. The room itself looks like it could be acoustically problematic as well.

I don't mean to be bashing your system, I am just letting you know that there are some opportunities for improvement here. Some things you can do is place a thick rug in the floor space between the speaker and listening position. That should help with the acoustics a bit. Go to a hi-fi dealer in your area and demo some modern speaker systems. You may find a significant difference between the way they sound and the sound from your setup.

 

[Bucknekked]

Hello all!

I have always loved home audio but am just now taking the time to really learn and understand it. I was looking for some advice, and if possible the logic behind said advice so I can understand why what is suggested is the best course of action. With that said here is my current setup:

Receiver: Marantz Sr-5012
Amp: Pioneer Series 20 M-25*
Front Speaks: (4) Kenwood 888D's
Center Speaker: B&W CM Centre
Surround: (4) Boston Acoustic SoundWare Cubes

First, I will say I know it is a hodgepodge mix of components and speakers, but I have always had eclectic taste and I really enjoy how my system sounds. The main reason I am posting and the reason for the asterisk next to the M-25 is that I just received and hooked it up today. Previous to today I was using a Technics SE-A1000 in place of the M-25. I had a few questions that I was hoping someone may be able to assist me with:

-Currently I have two of the 888's running off the Marantz which is rated at 100W per channel. The Marantz also runs the surround and center. The other two 888's are run off the amp which is fed from the front speaker pre-out. What I am wondering is if this is the optimal setup for what I have, or if I should wire the system in another fashion? Is the M-25 (rated at 120W per channel) superior enough to the Marantz that I should run all four 888's wired parallel from the M-25 and sacrifice the 40W I would lose from my current configuration of two front speakers from the Marantz and two from the M-25?

-I know the M-25 is class AB so it is always has juice running through it so to speak. When nothing is playing through the stereo I hear a sort of static coming from only the two 888's connected to the M-25. Sometimes I can hear it picking TV or radio signals as well when nothing is being played. Is this because it is AB and always on so to speak? Also, I have the M-25 plugged into a surge protector with other components etc, is that an issue, should it be directly pulling from the wall, or its own surge?

-Lastly, a guy I know already offered me more than I paid to buy the M-25 from me. What are your opinions as far as the M-25 compared to the Technics SE-A1000 as far as quality of sound? I think I can hear a noticeable increase in quality, but of course that's what I want to hear, and as I can't readily switch back and forth between the two amps, it is difficult to really compare the sound quality of the different amps.

I have include a picture of my current setup below.

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to respond. Your knowledge and assistance are most appreciated. Please feel free to comment on any part of my setup as I am here to learn and am aware of how little I know. Thank you again!View attachment 31374

Welcome to the forum and hope you enjoy what you learn.

I'm glad there are other folks in the world that put their speakers and such in a layout because it looks good!
For years I did many of my stereo layouts based on how it looked. I was also pretty happy with the sound.

I've learned a lot since those days so now I pay attention to other queues for the layout. I like the way your stuff looks. I haven't seen too many speakers that look like yours. Hopefully they sound as good as they look.

Enjoy the forum and welcome again

 

[Pogre]

I'm shocked that you all responded, thank you for being so willing to help!

Jim-
My intention is to have the best sound from my home audio system. That being said my ears are untrained and I imagine sometimes I equate loudness with quality although I know the vast difference. The main reason I like to be able to turn it up is I honestly feel that is the best way to hear all the subtle nuances of a song that I don't hear at lower volumes. Is there a better way to hear the music as it was intended? I have a wall full of headphones as well because you can hear every note with a great pair of headphones and a headphone amp!

I stacked them as they are for aesthetic reasons to be honest. I was a designer in the past so although sound quality is my number one concern, I like to try and make things look pleasing as well.

Can I replace the capacitors myself, is there any way I can check if it has been done? I may not be knowledgeable, but I am handy.

Lovinthehd-
I have two per side because I really don't know what I am doing and when I found the speakers the guy had four of them in mint condition, so four I bought. I didn't know where else I could possibly put such a large front speaker than in the front, so there they lie. Is there another place where the speaker might be better? I did not double up the surrounds.

I like the old amps because I still believe they built things with more care and better parts then, plus I am a child of the 80/90's so retro/vintage calls to me. I didn't go vintage with my receiver as I think the technology aspect is more important there. I wish my answers had more substance to them. I feel foolish even on the beginner board.

As for the interference I am hearing the amp has a place for a ground wire right next to the speaker connections because the power plug is not grounded. What would I use for a ground wire in this case, and what in a home could I ground it to?

Thanks for the compliment of the bricks, I thought it was funny anyhow.

shadyJ-
I'm not sure I know what I enjoy now that I realize how backwards my system is. I mean I have spent a majority of my life listening to music, working in nightclubs, and putting together stereos that defy logic apparently. With that said I'm not destroying the music or looking for pounding bass at all. I only have one 10" sub hidden behind one of the stacks that's only at half volume. What I like most is quality sound and to be honest despite my lack of knowledge I really believe the system sounds good. Anyone who has heard it loves it, but they are likely as untrained as I am. I would agree with you no matter the system if the individual who owns it likes the way it sounds then that is the only thing that truly matters. Still, dogs like their food until they get some table scraps, so maybe I am just ignorant to what I really want this to sound like. I am open to any and all suggestions. I have started going through different posts and reading across the site, but nothing beats individualized help from pros such as yourselves. If anyone happens to be, or know someone in the Chicago area who is knowledgeable about home audio I would be happy to hire someone to come help me with this mess. I just haven't found anyone who seemed like the really knew what they were talking about and would be willing to come assist me.

Thank you all again, I truly appreciate you taking the time to try and give me the help I need!

I'm enjoying reading your posts. There's some thought behind them and you seem very open to accepting advice. I'll just say that I agree with what you've been given thus far and you have some room for improvement with what you have. I'd suggest looking at some different speakers as I think you have opportunity there as well, but if maximize what you have now you might be pretty happy with the results.

 

[baronvonellis]

I'm shocked that you all responded, thank you for being so willing to help!
If anyone happens to be, or know someone in the Chicago area who is knowledgeable about home audio I would be happy to hire someone to come help me with this mess. I just haven't found anyone who seemed like the really knew what they were talking about and would be willing to come assist me.

Thank you all again, I truly appreciate you taking the time to try and give me the help I need!

Hi AudioFloyd- I'm in the Chicago area and could help you make some changes to improve sound quality. It sounds like you are open to suggestions on how to improve the system. I agree with ShadyJ that you are going to have all kinds of acoustical issues with that setup, and the way the speakers are designed with drivers placed haphazardly all over.

The ground wire is usually for a turntable ground wire. If you are using a turntable you should hook up the ground wire there. Otherwise don't worry about it.

You can PM me if you like.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

sometimes I equate loudness with quality

Nothing wrong with that, and it's obvious you already have a preference for high volume and hard-hitting bass. I had a couple setups in the 90's with 4 15's also (originally all Radio Shack specials, but later a pair of JBL CF-150's with Infinity SM-155's). Not high quality, accurate speakers, but they hammered the air out of my lungs and filled the room with music. So I get it.

In my opinion you should start with the speakers before changing anything else. But the pictures tell me you won't settle for tiny bass (I can relate!).

Unfortunately big speakers are nowhere near as common as in decades past. There are some more recent speakers that take advantage of modern design and still rattle your teeth. Late 90's / early 2000's I consider the last great heyday of big slamming boxes. Cerwin Vega AT-15's and D-9's are highly regarded, and not hard to find. Klipsch has several models in their Heritage line I think you'd love too (like the Forte or Forte II or Chorus). Klipsch KLF-30's (rare but they do pop up for sale sometimes) might be a great option too. Both CV and Klipsch have higher efficiency speakers than many other brands, which you'll be at home with if your Kenwood's 98db sensitivity spec is anywhere near accurate. Audiokarma is huge on old-school and vintage equipment so it's a great place to research gear from years past if you want to seek out oldies but goodies.

The other option is getting smaller high-efficiency speakers (skinny towers or even bookshelves) but putting a healthy dose of powered subs in your room to fill in the boom. The downside will be cost and electricity usage. Many members here go down that route though. I'm no sub expert but you will find no shortage of help on this site.

 

[lovinthehd]

Lovinthehd-
I have two per side because I really don't know what I am doing and when I found the speakers the guy had four of them in mint condition, so four I bought. I didn't know where else I could possibly put such a large front speaker than in the front, so there they lie. Is there another place where the speaker might be better? I did not double up the surrounds.

I like the old amps because I still believe they built things with more care and better parts then, plus I am a child of the 80/90's so retro/vintage calls to me. I didn't go vintage with my receiver as I think the technology aspect is more important there. I wish my answers had more substance to them. I feel foolish even on the beginner board.

As for the interference I am hearing the amp has a place for a ground wire right next to the speaker connections because the power plug is not grounded. What would I use for a ground wire in this case, and what in a home could I ground it to?

Thanks for the compliment of the bricks, I thought it was funny anyhow.

Did you ever try putting one pair aside and just using one L/R pair? You could use a second pair as surrounds if space permits as a way to use the second pair...for multich music could be a benefit over the small sats..

Meh, old is old....certain gear among the old might be vintage, but just being old alone doesn't make them vintage. The M-25 does look like a nice amp, tho. I put my first good system together in 72 but I don't miss the gear from then particularly, altho I do still have some of my 2ch gear from the 80s (but being analog/2ch only its of limited use to me now). I doubt the Pioneer amp is particularly better SQ (sound quality) than your avr in any case if they're functioning properly (and compared fairly). Looking at this for spec those speakers are very sensitive and don't require much power to get quite loud; I'd think the avr alone would be fine. The advantage to some of the old gear is repairability, tho (particularly for receivers). Like ShadyJ says, speaker design has come a ways since then, altho some of those big Japanese brand speakers from back then did sound nice enough

Your amp manual does indicate the ground is to be connected to your home's earth ground, at least that's how it appears in the connection diagram, tho they don't mention it otherwise that I saw. I suppose connecting to a ground in an outlet would work if needed, but it sounds like you're getting other than a ground loop hum with the noise/signals bleeding in you describe. What connectors are you using from the avr's pre-outs to the amp?

In the end it's what makes you happiest, tho

 

[baronvonellis]

If it's an old amp with electrolytic capacitors, the old one would be worse than a new amp. Those caps dry out after 20 years or more, and that could be adding noise or other problems, or it could be the connectors.

 

[-Jim-]

I'm shocked that you all responded, thank you for being so willing to help!

Jim-
My intention is to have the best sound from my home audio system. That being said my ears are untrained and I imagine sometimes I equate loudness with quality although I know the vast difference. The main reason I like to be able to turn it up is I honestly feel that is the best way to hear all the subtle nuances of a song that I don't hear at lower volumes. Is there a better way to hear the music as it was intended? I have a wall full of headphones as well because you can hear every note with a great pair of headphones and a headphone amp!

I stacked them as they are for aesthetic reasons to be honest. I was a designer in the past so although sound quality is my number one concern, I like to try and make things look pleasing as well.

Can I replace the capacitors myself, is there any way I can check if it has been done? I may not be knowledgeable, but I am handy.

Sorry for my tardiness in replying, I was out of town on business. If the previous owner didn't mention the replacing the capacitors, then they probably haven't been done. Therefore it's something you should do if you plan to keep enjoying these speakers. It is relatively straight forward task. Of course we can always give you advise on new speakers, but the challenge will be to see what you can get out of these vintage units.

The capacitors are part of a crossover network which supplies each driver with the signal range it was designed to best reproduce. I suspect you'd remove the woofer to gain access to the crossover, but there may be access from the rear. Please comment, or post a photo of the back of one of the speakers. Replace only with the same value of capacitor.

In the meantime I'd suggest you experiment with a single pair (L&R) in a vertical orientation, but elevate them off the ground. To keep it simple just try rotate the top two in your setup 90° with the woofer down on top of the bottom pair (just as they are - but not powered up). The idea is to get the midrange speakers and tweeters near ear level when you are normally listening to them. (I assume sitting) Use the Marantz Sr-5012 to power it all, and run Audyssey speaker calibration. Turn up your sub to about 3/4 and let the Audyssey set it's volume. See if you like that sound.