Larry Ellison's team caught cheating the Americas Cup World series

[haraldo]

This is shocking:
Dalton slams Oracle as America's Cup cheats - Americas Cup News | TVNZ

In one of the biggest scandals in international yachting history, Oracle Team USA have been found guilty of cheating after modifying their AC45 catamarans illegally in last year's America's Cup World Series.
The syndicate is now being charged with bringing the sport into disrepute following an internal investigation.
The team have been ordered to return all relevant prizes and trophies.

 

[Pyrrho]

What is shocking is that people believe that sports somehow promote "sportsmanship." People often cheat to win when there is something to be gained from winning, if they believe they can get away with it. That is why it is absolutely necessary, in every sport, to have people look into what everyone is doing to try to find out if someone is cheating. Otherwise, the cheating is simply not discovered, which obviously is not the same as no one cheating.

 

[haraldo]

What is shocking is that people believe that sports somehow promote "sportsmanship." People often cheat to win when there is something to be gained from winning, if they believe they can get away with it. That is why it is absolutely necessary, in every sport, to have people look into what everyone is doing to try to find out if someone is cheating. Otherwise, the cheating is simply not discovered, which obviously is not the same as no one cheating.

I will never accept this attitude, accepting cheating is something I will never do, and neither shoudl you!
If you accept cheating then you're already sinking low yourself.....

And yes, it's a shock that Larry Ellison's team is cheaters

 

[Chu Gai]

Pyrrho is not saying that one must accept cheating rather that one must not be so naive as to think it doesn't exist.

 

[haraldo]

Yes I know, it was not directed really at Pyrrho, my apologies if so could be understood !!
But it is a general acceptance that cheating is allowed and this I will never respect or accept and neither should you guys

Actually, a proper due course that can be supported by the international sailing rules.... is a full disqualification and suspension of Oracle Team USA from the whole Americas Cup, so that the US team cannot take part in the regattas of the cup it is now defending.

I would support such an action and be happy if that would be the result of this.

 

[Alex2507]

Actually, a proper due course that can be supported by the international sailing rules....

Do those rules apply to Americas Cup ... I mean, it's not the International Cup.
It's our cup and what we say goes.

 

[haraldo]

Do those rules apply to Americas Cup ... I mean, it's not the International Cup.
It's our cup and what we say goes.

No it's not your cup, you're defending it and have to obey the racing rules of sailing, or the whole team can in worst case be suspended for all racing, for a long time, if it's a serious violation

The Americas Cup does have a special edition of the ISAF Racing rules of sailing
http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ISAF-Racing-Rules-of-Sailing-AC-Edition-v-1.19..pdf

Also it must be according to the deed of gift, which was the original basic rule governing the cup
http://www.a3.org/ac2000_DeedofGift.html

I belive that ISAF can disqualify and suspend Oracle Team USA from all the races in the Americas Cup based on their own rules. If they dare to do this, though.... is another thing
There's some fine reading here and..... well.... maybe I'm wrong....

This is from "The ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing, Americas Cup Edition"

SECTION C
GROSS MISCONDUCT

69 ALLEGATIONS OF GROSS MISCONDUCT

69.1 Action by the Jury
(a) When the Jury, from its own observation or a report received from any source, believes that a person associated with a Competitor may have committed a gross breach of a rule, good manners or sportsmanship, or may have brought the sport into disrepute, it may call a hearing. The Jury shall promptly inform the individual in writing of the alleged misconduct and of the time and place of the hearing. If the individual provide

69.2 Action by a National Authority or Initial Action by the ISAF
(a) When a national authority or the ISAF receives a report alleging a gross breach of a rule, good manners or sportsmanship, or a report alleging conduct that has brought
the sport into disrepute, or a report required by rule 69.1(c) or 69.1(e), it may conduct an investigation and, when appropriate, shall conduct a hearing. It may then take any disciplinary action within its jurisdiction it considers appropriate against the competitor or yacht, or other person involved, including suspending eligibility, permanently or for a specified period of time, to compete in any event held within its jurisdiction, and suspending ISAF eligibility under ISAF Regulation 19.


(b) The national authority of a competitor shall also suspend the ISAF eligibility of the competitor as required in ISAF Regulation 19.

(c) The national authority shall promptly report a suspension of eligibility under rule 69.2(a) to the ISAF, and to the national authorities of the person or the owner of the
yacht suspended if they are not members of the suspending national authority.

69.3 Subsequent Action by the ISAF
Upon receipt of a report required by rule 69.2(c) or ISAF Regulation 19, or following its own action under rule 69.2(a), the ISAF shall inform all national authorities, which may also suspend eligibility for events held within their jurisdiction. The ISAF Executive Committee shall suspend the competitor’s ISAF eligibility as required in ISAF Regulation 19 if the competitor’s national authority does not do so.

 

[Alex2507]

Just messin' with ya, Harald ... but did you notice that the rules are written in American?

 

[haraldo]

just messin' with ya, harald ... But did you notice that the rules are written in american? :d

lol .......

 

[Chu Gai]

I'd like to see the races held off th coast of Somalia.

 

[haraldo]

Well, as we speak there is an ongoing investigation by ISAF justified by rule 69... as referred to above, so let's see what comes out of this...

 

[Chu Gai]

Will Michael Douglas be involved in Rule 69?

 

[Pyrrho]

Pyrrho is not saying that one must accept cheating rather that one must not be so naive as to think it doesn't exist.

Yes, absolutely. Otherwise I would not have stated this part:

... That is why it is absolutely necessary, in every sport, to have people look into what everyone is doing to try to find out if someone is cheating. Otherwise, the cheating is simply not discovered, which obviously is not the same as no one cheating.

If I thought it should just be accepted, there would be no need to try to find it.



Cheating is something that people have been doing in sports for thousands of years. The ancient Greeks had an interesting way of dealing with cheaters, which is best explained along with how winners were identified. In the original Olympics, the winner would get an olive branch which would naturally decay soon; being the best was not permanent; one was best for the moment, and who was best next time would be determined next time. (Though the winner's city state, or country, would often give him cash or some other more substantial reward, that was not part of the official games.)

Cheaters, on the other hand, were immortalized with their names carved in stone, so that everyone would know their names forever. Here are some links about it:

What was the penalty for cheating in the ancient Olympic games

Cheating - Ancient olympics Athens Greece

Cheating at the Ancient Olympics - Specific Instances of Cheating and Cheaters and What Happened to Them

The idea, of course, is that a bad character lasts, whereas being the best athlete does not. And, of course, they wanted to discourage cheating.


And this also shows that cheating is nothing new, which should not be surprising to anyone.

 

[haraldo]

Interesting from the links, Pyrrho:

If you cheated, you would never be allowed to compete again because cheating was considered disrespectful to the gods.

Cheating seems to have been rare at the ancient Olympics, which traditionally started in 776 B.C. and were held every 4 years thereafter. It is assumed there were cheaters in addition to the known ones listed below, but the judges, Hellanodikai, were considered honest, and on the whole, so were the athletes, -- partly deterred by stiff fines and the possibility of flogging.

Nothing new that people are cheating, but penalties must be so severe that the risk is too high, so like the ancient greekes, those who cheat should not be allowed to compete in the... at least close future, it's what I think

Hope for an incredibly tough verdict on this!

 

[Pyrrho]

Interesting from the links, Pyrrho:

If you cheated, you would never be allowed to compete again because cheating was considered disrespectful to the gods.

Cheating seems to have been rare at the ancient Olympics, which traditionally started in 776 B.C. and were held every 4 years thereafter. It is assumed there were cheaters in addition to the known ones listed below, but the judges, Hellanodikai, were considered honest, and on the whole, so were the athletes, -- partly deterred by stiff fines and the possibility of flogging.

Nothing new that people are cheating, but penalties must be so severe that the risk is too high, so like the ancient greekes, those who cheat should not be allowed to compete in the... at least close future, it's what I think

Hope for an incredibly tough verdict on this!

I think that real cheating (as opposed to an accidental violation of some obscure rule) should always have stiff penalties, like being banned from the sport for life for the first offense, along with fines (based on money obtained from the sport as well as endorsements and advertisements from companies, totally 150% of what one has obtained) and possibly additional penalties. To enter the competition, one should have to agree to such terms. Flogging would not be legal in most jurisdictions, so we cannot have all that the ancient Greeks would do. But scum should be treated as scum, and they should not benefit from their cheating (hence my suggestion for the fines being at 150% of all monetary compensation one got as a result of being in competition, including company endorsements, etc.). As things are now, cheaters often are millionaires based on their cheating, and only get a trivial punishment when they are caught. Such an environment encourages cheating.

 

[Chu Gai]

I don't know about banning but maybe something like being required to have a sail that's colored scarlet to mark the impropriety. That way, the race commentators would invariably make a point of mentioning it.

 

[Rickster71]

I recommend the book Freakononics to anyone interested in reading how, and why we all cheat. Some more frequently than others. Interesting read: Freakonomics » Chapter 1

For every incentive there's a cheater.

Who cheats?
Just about everyone . . . How cheaters cheat, and how to catch them . . . Stories from an Israeli day-care center . . . The sudden disappearance of seven million American children . . . Cheating school teachers in Chicago . . . Why cheating to lose is worse than cheating to win . . . Could sumo wrestling, the national sport of Japan, be corrupt? . . . What Do School Teachers and Sumo Wrestlers Have in Common?


​

 

[Pyrrho]

I don't know about banning but maybe something like being required to have a sail that's colored scarlet to mark the impropriety. That way, the race commentators would invariably make a point of mentioning it.

Well, if you want to encourage people to cheat, giving them a cool color for their sails to distinguish them from others is probably a good idea. I can imagine someone cheating just so they can get a great red sail.