Lack of impact bass

[Sanford]

We've been missing something in our system, and its the lack of punch from the subs. To start: RX-V2500, BA VR-3 mains, VRC center, VRX sides, CRC-57 rears, and now 2 PV-700 subs. I have 4" of acoustical homemade treatment on all ceiling to wall corners and the 4 vertical corners. Acoustical underlay (home depot calls it that) and new plush carpet. The room in 12.5' x 21.5". I have yet to add acoustical treatment to the reflection points, one which is in the middle of the room doing the clap test. Are the down firing subs firing into the carpet damping some of the bass? I did the crawl test, roughly; and have the subs placed at the rear corners of the room. I had previously had one on the right front and other rear left. That all I can think of. I spent enough on subs, but if that is what it is then I'll replace them, unenthusiastically.
ps I've played with the mains on large and small, and with the crossover points. Also done the YPAO test.

 

[RMK!]

Something missing

We've been missing something in our system, and its the lack of punch from the subs. To start: RX-V2500, BA VR-3 mains, VRC center, VRX sides, CRC-57 rears, and now 2 PV-700 subs. I have 4" of acoustical homemade treatment on all ceiling to wall corners and the 4 vertical corners. Acoustical underlay (home depot calls it that) and new plush carpet. The room in 12.5' x 21.5". I have yet to add acoustical treatment to the reflection points, one which is in the middle of the room doing the clap test. Are the down firing subs firing into the carpet damping some of the bass? I did the crawl test, roughly; and have the subs placed at the rear corners of the room. I had previously had one on the right front and other rear left. That all I can think of. I spent enough on subs, but if that is what it is then I'll replace them, unenthusiastically.
ps I've played with the mains on large and small, and with the crossover points. Also done the YPAO test.

It looks as though you have done everything you can to optimize your current subs. I assume that LF extension is the problem. Those BA subs are rated 29-150Hz and that will not get you the LF punch you are looking for. In that general price range SVS and HSU are subs that will go lower and provide more punch. Contact one or both of those manufacturers and they will assist but calculate your room size first.

 

[ducker]

I was thinking the same thing.. even the pb10 is 300 watts, vs 200 watts on the PV700 sub.

 

[j_garcia]

"Punch" or "chest thump" is generally not in the lowest portion of the bass, it is higher up where most subs can operate adequately. To be honest, that kind of thump is usually a peak that would normally considered bad not good, when looking at a response graph. So when you say impact do you mean "chest thump" or low rumble? If it's low rumble, you need a better sub.

 

[Timn8ter]

"Punch" or "chest thump" is generally not in the lowest portion of the bass, it is higher up..."

Same thing I was thinking. You may want to consider a parametric EQ, especially with dual subs, and "dial-in" a curve that gives you a bump in that range. Bass treatments require large traps. Small absorptive or diffractive panels are not going to handle wavelengths the size you're trying to control. A parametric EQ will allow you to boost the frequencies getting sucked out by the room. A starting point would be a relatively inexpensive SPL meter and a test tones disk so you can see what your room is doing.

 

[sivadselim]

"Punch" or "chest thump" is generally not in the lowest portion of the bass, it is higher up where most subs can operate adequately. To be honest, that kind of thump is usually a peak that would normally considered bad not good, when looking at a response graph. So when you say impact do you mean "chest thump" or low rumble? If it's low rumble, you need a better sub.

Yeah, I agree, 2 of those should provide quite a bit of chest thump. Just won't blur your vision.

 

[Sanford]

addendum

The 4" of acoustical treatment is 4" thick by 2' wide at all 8 corners. The subs will rumble, but doesn't have the impact of a strike, like a bass drum hit.

 

[RMK!]

The 4" of acoustical treatment is 4" thick by 2' wide at all 8 corners. The subs will rumble, but doesn't have the impact of a strike, like a bass drum hit.

Have you tried co-locating the subs?

 

[Timn8ter]

The 4" of acoustical treatment is 4" thick by 2' wide at all 8 corners. The subs will rumble, but doesn't have the impact of a strike, like a bass drum hit.

This is exactly what's been referred to. The strike of a bass drum (or any other bass instrument for that matter) is not made up of just low frequencies. The strike of the drum head is going to be a much higher frequency than the fundamental. The bass drum "sound" covers 50Hz to 5.5 kHz. To get the thump in the chest boost a few dB between 60-85Hz. The slap of the beater is anywhere from 2.5 kHz to 5 kHz. Your mains might be producing more of the bass drum sound than you would think.

 

[Sanford]

probably need to run a frequency analysis

The acoustical treatment got rid of the bass null in the middle of the room where no bass was heard, but there may be a hole still there. But moving around the room it mostly sounds the same.

 

[3db]

Just to hijack your thread for a sec

We've been missing something in our system, and its the lack of punch from the subs. To start: RX-V2500, BA VR-3 mains, VRC center, VRX sides, CRC-57 rears, and now 2 PV-700 subs. I have 4" of acoustical homemade treatment on all ceiling to wall corners and the 4 vertical corners. Acoustical underlay (home depot calls it that) and new plush carpet. The room in 12.5' x 21.5". I have yet to add acoustical treatment to the reflection points, one which is in the middle of the room doing the clap test. Are the down firing subs firing into the carpet damping some of the bass? I did the crawl test, roughly; and have the subs placed at the rear corners of the room. I had previously had one on the right front and other rear left. That all I can think of. I spent enough on subs, but if that is what it is then I'll replace them, unenthusiastically.
ps I've played with the mains on large and small, and with the crossover points. Also done the YPAO test.

You mentioned clap test. Where in the room relative to your main speakers and seating position did you each the clap echoe?

 

[Sanford]

Clap test

I still haven't put the rear doors to the room up, but the only place I hear an echo when clapping is in the center of the room. A piece of 2'x5' fiberglass 2/3 up and horizontal on the walls seems to take care of it. I figure I need to do the first reflection points and maybe the ceiling too.
I hear the echo during the YPAO test of the side speakers and on the side walls in the center area when claping.

One thing I didn't mention was that the YPAO said that my mains and center were wired wrong. Its not. I've read that this happens sometimes and ignored it, any revelance? I've double checked the wiring.

 

[3db]

Fist refelction point on the wall relative to where you

I still haven't put the rear doors to the room up, but the only place I hear an echo when clapping is in the center of the room. A piece of 2'x5' fiberglass 2/3 up and horizontal on the walls seems to take care of it. I figure I need to do the first reflection points and maybe the ceiling too.
I hear the echo during the YPAO test of the side speakers and on the side walls in the center area when claping.

One thing I didn't mention was that the YPAO said that my mains and center were wired wrong. Its not. I've read that this happens sometimes and ignored it, any revelance? I've double checked the wiring.

are sitting is when you get a friend to slide a mirror along the wall and you see the drivers of your speaker in the mirror. Thats where you need to treat the wall and not the center of the room. The center of the room only comes into play if its a secondary refelction point. Check out this link;

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=28194