knukonceptz speaker wire

[Giuseppe]

Hey guys

I want to do a fun little experiment with my RTi10's ans speaker wire. I want to buy a higher grade of speaker wire to compare the sound difference between my now installed RCA 14 gauge. I was thinking about getting some of this stuuf http://knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KASA10BK what do you guys think? Or is there better speaker wire for that price somewhere else? I only need about 16" to connect my RTi10's and my CSi5. Thanks

 

[jaxvon]

Why not? The only thing more "high end" I could think of would start to be esoteric cables that are really expensive.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hey guys

I want to do a fun little experiment with my RTi10's ans speaker wire. I want to buy a higher grade of speaker wire to compare the sound difference between my now installed RCA 14 gauge. I was thinking about getting some of this stuuf http://knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KASA10BK what do you guys think? Or is there better speaker wire for that price somewhere else? I only need about 16" to connect my RTi10's and my CSi5. Thanks

Sure you can compare anything if you want. But, it is a waste of time and whatever little this costs. Wire is wire when it comes to 14gs and 10ga, no matter how much silver it has in it.

 

[Giuseppe]

Sure you can compare anything if you want. But, it is a waste of time and whatever little this costs. Wire is wire when it comes to 14gs and 10ga, no matter how much silver it has in it.

So you don't think that it will make any difference at all? Not even a bit? Cause thats what I want to see.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So you don't think that it will make any difference at all? Not even a bit? Cause thats what I want to see.

Audibly, zero effect. If you are after just electrical measured differences, yes, there will always be an instrument that will measure differences between cables an inch shorter, or less

And, I think I read your distance as 16 inches? That is insignificant int he scheme of things, even 18 ga would work for that short distance.

Human hearing has its great moments due to the computing power behind it, the human brain It can identify sounds due to stored data, like your mother's voice as you have that well stored.
But to differentiate between small differences, well, it is very limited and much of the music is masked to begin with. One reason why perceptual coding such as Dolby Digital, MP3, AAc and other coding works so well

What you should worry about in a sound system are your speakers quality, room acoustics and the software you listen to, how well it is recorded.

 

[Giuseppe]

ok, cool. Thanks for your opinion, it makes sense.

 

[howie85]

mtrycrafts says to himself...that was easy...

 

[Giuseppe]

lol, I never said I wasn't still going to try.

 

[jaxvon]

I would still try for the hell of it. The cost is so small that it's worth satisfying your own curiosity. Besides, even if you don't end up using it, you can always use it to take care of the werewolves that might be lurking around

 

[Mudcat]

lol, I never said I wasn't still going to try.

Actually, while agreeing with Mtrycrafts, I'll slightly disagree also. If as stated above, you are currently using 14 awg, there should be a measurable difference (with a decent sound meter), whether you hear the difference is another matter. But going from 14 awg to 10 awg is significant enough that it may be audible especially if the 14 awg uses pvc insulation (high dialectric constant of 4.6+) compared to the polyethylene in the knukonceptzs wire (dialectric constant of 2.37). The lower DC will lower the capacitive reactance which could be apparent at the higher frequencies.

But then again, you may hear squat - who knows.

 

[mtrycrafts]

lol, I never said I wasn't still going to try.

Just be sure your biases won't get in the way.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Actually, while agreeing with Mtrycrafts, I'll slightly disagree also. If as stated above, you are currently using 14 awg, there should be a measurable difference (with a decent sound meter), whether you hear the difference is another matter. But going from 14 awg to 10 awg is significant enough that it may be audible especially if the 14 awg uses pvc insulation (high dialectric constant of 4.6+) compared to the polyethylene in the knukonceptzs wire (dialectric constant of 2.37). The lower DC will lower the capacitive reactance which could be apparent at the higher frequencies.

But then again, you may hear squat - who knows.

Greenhill did a DBT cable test some years ago, 24ga, 16ga and 12ga. Levels matched and unmatched, pink noise and various music sources:
11 of 11 subjects identified difference with pink noise of 24 vs 12ga, unmatched
4 of 11 identified it when levels matched, pink noise ( 7 flunked)
3 of 11 identified 12ga vs 16, unmatched pink noise
0 of 11 identified 12 ga vs 16, unmatched choral music
3 of 11 identified 12ga vs 24, unmatched choral music


I would not worry about 10ga vs 14ga, nor 16.

Capacitance is not an issue to roll off highs in speaker cables but it can be an issue to an amp like Naim.
Interconnects can be an issue when the output impedance is high as from a passive preamp that follows or is the value of the volume control, and variable, compared to the input impedance.

Hayward, James 'Beating the Bafflegab & Filtering the FooFooDust,' Part 1- Marshall's Audio Ideas Guide(Canada) Summer/Fall 94

Hayward, James 'Making the Connection. Part Deux: A Closer Look at the Role of Loudspeaker Cables,' Winter 95. Reprints available from Kimberkable.


These explains it and shows the calculations and examples.

 

[mulester7]

lol, I never said I wasn't still going to try.

.....Giuseppe, Mudcat just told you the differences between 10 and 14 ga "would" show up with a sound meter, and differences in the sound quality could very well be heard....to attempt to do an AB listening test with two different speaker wire sizes, would surely bring a fairly long wait before hearing B, so what good would it really do?....to me, the only credible AB listening test, is both the items to be compared performing at the "same time", with your being able to pinpoint one, then the other by walking a few feet, using like speakers and the same source, with the sound chamber totally open between the speakers....I applaud your decision to go to 10 ga and be done with it, even if you choose the silver-plated stuff at 2 bucks a foot....you'll never give it another thought knowing the situation is fully covered, and quality wire will last you for years....Giuseppe, wire is cheap....I run 10 ga about 30 feet, to 300 watt-rated mains that was around 60 cents a foot, and 8 ga about the same 30 feet, to 2500 watt-rated unpowered subs that was around 75 cents a foot, and haven't thought about it since, knowing the situation was/is fully covered for years....Giuseppe, wire is cheap....and lastly, Giuseppe, in case I failed to mention it, wire is cheap......

 

[Mudcat]

Capacitance is not an issue to roll off highs in speaker cables but it can be an issue to an amp like Naim.

Totally agree with your points about the Greenhill tests and interconnects. However, my calculations do show that two similar speaker cables with regard to R_ac and L, but having significantly different Capacitance will show a 0.1 dB difference at frequencies starting above 10K. My algorithm takes the speaker into account. I'm modifying it to also include the amp output impedance.

Personally, I do not know anyone who will be able to hear a 0.1 dB delta, but I'm sure there are:
<FORM METHOD=post ACTION="/cgi-bin/example.cgi">
SELECT AN OPTION
<SELECT>
<OPTION>idiots
<OPTION>fools
<OPTION>jerks
<OPTION>gullible
<OPTION>Boneheads
<OPTION>pushovers
<OPTION>A$$#0le$
<OPTION>$h!theads
<OPTION>lemmings
<OPTION>Well Meaning but uninformed people
</SELECT><BR>
<INPUT type="Submit">
</FORM>

such as
<FORM METHOD=post ACTION="/cgi-bin/example.cgi">
SELECT AN OPTION
<SELECT>
<OPTION>Jon Risch
<OPTION>Duster
<OPTION>Wellfed
<OPTION>geoffkait
<OPTION>E-Stat
<OPTION>mkuller
<OPTION>bjh
<OPTION>alan m. kafton
<OPTION>Al Sekela
</SELECT><BR>
<INPUT type="Submit">
</FORM>
over AA who will insist that they can hear the difference.

....to me, the only credible AB listening test, is both the items to be compared performing at the "same time", with your being able to pinpoint one, then the other by walking a few feet, using like speakers and the same source, with the sound chamber totally open between the speakers....

or, connect one cable to one speaker and the other brand cable to the other speaker, set the output to mono and compare.

I applaud your decision to go to 10 ga and be done with it, even if you choose the silver-plated stuff at 2 bucks a foot....you'll never give it another thought knowing the situation is fully covered, and quality wire will last you for years....Giuseppe, wire is cheap....

here here. Good words.
Where did you find 8 awg for 75 cents/ft? How long ago?

lol, I never said I wasn't still going to try.

Giuseppe, got a proposition. Zip it up man, not that kind of proposition. After you get the knukonceptz wire, send me ten feet or what ever length you'll be using (per speaker), also send the same length of your older 14 awg cable. I'll run them through my lab and send you a report on what the differences are and what you may or may not be able to hear. I send them back to you on my own coin.

My lab is:<TABLE BORDER="2" CELLPADDING="2 CELLSPACING="2" WIDTH="100%">
<TR>
<TH><b>DEVICE</b></TH>
<TH><b>Mfg.</b></TH>
<TH><b>Model</b></TH>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>LCR METER</TD>
<TD>Instek</TD>
<TD>LCR 821</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>MILLI-OHM METER</TD>
<TD>Instek</TD>
<TD>GOM 802</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>OSCILLOSCOPE</TD>
<TD>Instek</TD>
<TD>GDS 820C</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>OSCILLOSCOPE</TD>
<TD>Tektronix</TD>
<TD>2246</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>FREQUENCY GENERATOR</TD>
<TD>Metex</TD>
<TD>MS9170</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>CALIBRATED MIC</TD>
<TD>Earthworks</TD>
<TD>M30</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>SPL METER</TD>
<TD>BK Precision</TD>
<TD>732-WB</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>SPEAKERS</TD>
<TD>Sapphire</TD>
<TD>SB</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>AMP</TD>
<TD>Alesis</TD>
<TD>RA150</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>CD/DVD PLAYER</TD>
<TD>Pioneer</TD>
<TD>Elite 45A</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>

 

[Giuseppe]

Thanks for the offer. Well another reason I am thinking of upgrading the wire is because when my friend was helping me splice the wire into two so we could attach the banana plugs, he sometimes cut to close to one wire. Now on some wires before the banana plug there are exposed wire. So instead of just getting more of the RCA wire I thought about getting something better. By the way it would be very interesting to find out by testing the stuff if I would be able to hear a difference. The only thing is that I live in Canada, so it would take awhile to ship there are back.

 

[mulester7]

.....Mudcat, that post was great, and offered "everything", haha....I ordered a 250 foot roll of SoundKing 8 ga. from this place about four months ago....this place is the cheapest outlet for SoundKing 8, 10, and 12 ga. I could find.....

http://www.starkelectronic.com/supwire.htm

.....they are out of SoundKing 12 and 10 ga. at the moment, but it appears they still have the 8 ga....8 ga. is probably taking it too far for full-range speakers, but I wanted it for the runs on these unpowered subs that are rated at 2500 watts, and will use it for the small cannon runs of 30-35 feet....I got around 180 feet of the stuff left over after the subs, so I guess why not?....Parts Express used to carry SoundKing 10, 12, 14, and 16, but I don't believe they do anymore.....again, great post, Mudcat......

 

[mtrycrafts]

Personally, I do not know anyone who will be able to hear a 0.1 dB delta, but I'm sure there are:

such as
over AA who will insist that they can hear the difference.

Boy, you make this post so complicated I had to read it three times.

But, your boxes were interesting indeed.



or, connect one cable to one speaker and the other brand cable to the other speaker, set the output to mono and compare.

Neither this or mules suggestion will work
You cannot listen to both at the same time.