KEF 104ab sale - Audio to DVD

E

ejdavid

Audiophyte
Two posts in one!

First, I own a large collection of vintage audiophile vinyl [MFSL etc]. Does anyone know of a SACD recorder or equivalent? I wonder if ordinary DVD recorders have a good enough sampling rate for audio only. CD=44hz SACD=98hz apx.

I also have an extra pair of KEF 104ab speakers. I tried doubling them up with my original pair, but no real improvement. So they are available.

Retro system
Technics SLQ2 turntable
KAB Grovemaster Cartridge
Marantz 1060 integrated amp
KEF 104 speakers

PLUS
Contemporary NAD receiver
Contemporary Sony SACD/multiplayer
 
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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
There is no such thing as a consumer SACD recorder.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Two posts in one!

First, I own a large collection of vintage audiophile vinyl [MFSL etc]. Does anyone know of a SACD recorder or equivalent? I wonder if ordinary DVD recorders have a good enough sampling rate for audio only. CD=44hz SACD=98hz apx.

I also have an extra pair of KEF 104ab speakers. I tried doubling them up with my original pair, but no real improvement. So they are available.

Retro system
Technics SLQ2 turntable
KAB Grovemaster Cartridge
Marantz 1060 integrated amp
KEF 104 speakers

PLUS
Contemporary NAD receiver
Contemporary Sony SACD/multiplayer
SACD is not PCM based. It uses a DSD decoder, which is highly problematic and inconvenient. There never has been a commercial DSD recorder. SACD is dying and will soon be dead, to be replaced by Audio Only Blue Ray which is much more satisfactory.

The CD 16 bit sampled at 44.1 kHz is fine 1411.1 kbs bit rate, is fine for archiving vinyl. That gives a frequency response up to 22 kHz and exceeds the dynamic range possible from vinyl. It is also comparable to the dynamic range of dbx 2 encoded LPs.

So using a higher specification is redundant and a waste of disc space.
 
E

ejdavid

Audiophyte
TLS - Thanks for the helpful tech infor

You wrote: "SACD is dying and will soon be dead, to be replaced by Audio Only Blue Ray which is much more satisfactory." Will there be audio only Blue Ray recorders? Why is it more satisfactory then SACD?

PS: One reason I buy SACD is I have a high level of confidence the source is likely to be high quality. That was the problem back in the early CD era. For instance, I knew what I was getting when I bought a MFSL vinyl. It was remastered from the original recording tapes.

Digital mastering has been the norm for quite some time now, and so recent CD's are just fine. However, I can find no SACD or new vinyl of Olivia Newton John's Olivia, which was recorded analog. Only regular CD's are available, and are listed as 'imported'.

I KNOW my MFSL vinyl was remastered from the original recording tapes. Accordingly, I wish to re-record it to the highest level possible. Specifically, for an audiophile, the music quality is right up there with my SACD Michael Jackson Thriller. A high standard indeed, IMHO!
 
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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
You wrote: "SACD is dying and will soon be dead, to be replaced by Audio Only Blue Ray which is much more satisfactory." Will there be audio only Blue Ray recorders? Why is it more satisfactory then SACD?
IMO, the benefit of BD Audio discs is that you don't need a "special" player to play them, and they use standard lossless audio codecs that most new receivers can handle. Presumably that means you would be able to copy them with a BD burner.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
yea, that would be nice, but DVD-audio and SACD still have yet to take off, problem is so few artists release them and audio quality is trending downward because so many people are switching to digital downloads, 90% of the "general" population does not even know what good sound is, all they know is their Ipods, and what not, i would be thrilled if those formats took off, then it would be no problem at all to introduce it into blu-ray format. but i dont see it happening anytime soon.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i take that back with enthusiasm! i just did a search on DVD-A titles and alot of artists are using them, wow things have certainly changed in 6 months since i last checked.

oh and now my favorite band is going to release their latest album on DVD-A!!!

still, i would like to see it take a stronger hold.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
The problem is that, based on the one's I've listened to, the DVD-A's tend to be recorded with the same bad mix that's used on most CDs... just in surround.

Upping the format size to BD won't change that... and I don't think that there's more than 8GB of data you can reasonably make a 70-minute album make.

Finally: I suspect there is a commercial SACD recorder... any computer DVD recorder (SACD is physically a DVD), though perhaps there's no software out there that chooses to encode SACD.

That said: for personal archiving, CD or DVD-A should be fine. The DVD-A format is as good as the SACD format from a technical standpoint.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
depends on the sampling rate and bits-per-samples. the highest availible format is PCM 24/196 in 8 channels, now considering a regular CD is encoded in 16/44.1 and only two channels, each channel at 16/44.1 is 768kbps, now im going to spare the math to keep my post short but a 24/192 sample is 4704kbps per channel, multiply that times 8 and you get 37,632kbps considering a typical album is 60 minutes long this adds up to exactly 16.14 GB, so yes, it is possible that the highest quality music can and should be placed on a single-layer blu-ray disc.

and as far as the surround goes, from the two DVD-A discs ive listened to, Dolby PLII MS can do nearly the same thing. it's not like instruments are hard SL/SR, it just increases the spatiality and gives it that live performance feel that stereo recordings lack, as if the band was right in your listening room. i also dont see the point in adding an LFE channel since most people using a sub have their receivers sending the LF to the sub in the first place.

The problem is that, based on the one's I've listened to, the DVD-A's tend to be recorded with the same bad mix that's used on most CDs... just in surround.
this is because a large percent of DVD-A discs utilize standard DD 5.1 which is 16/48, but there are capablities of 24/196

unless youre a young person with the ability to hear past 22khz, the 196khz sampling rates arent going to make too much of a difference, the 24bit per sample increase is what you will most likley notice because the sound is more fluid and is not rounded up or down to the nearest frequency as much as with 16bit samples
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
You wrote: "SACD is dying and will soon be dead, to be replaced by Audio Only Blue Ray which is much more satisfactory." Will there be audio only Blue Ray recorders? Why is it more satisfactory then SACD?

PS: One reason I buy SACD is I have a high level of confidence the source is likely to be high quality. That was the problem back in the early CD era. For instance, I knew what I was getting when I bought a MFSL vinyl. It was remastered from the original recording tapes.

Digital mastering has been the norm for quite some time now, and so recent CD's are just fine. However, I can find no SACD or new vinyl of Olivia Newton John's Olivia, which was recorded analog. Only regular CD's are available, and are listed as 'imported'.

I KNOW my MFSL vinyl was remastered from the original recording tapes. Accordingly, I wish to re-record it to the highest level possible. Specifically, for an audiophile, the music quality is right up there with my SACD Michael Jackson Thriller. A high standard indeed, IMHO!
Well first of all the CD has a greater band width than an LP, so the CD Red book standard is more than adequate.

However if you have a good analog master tape, with noise reduction there is a theoretical advantage to higher bit and sampling rates.

The problem is not the CD, but incompetent mix and mastering engineers from the pop culture. This is not an issue with the vast majority of classical CDs, which are superbly produced.

The problem with SACD is that it is not PCM based. It uses a process called Direct Stream Digital encoding. This is a form of pulse density modulation encoding. This was developed as a sop to the loony audiophile brigade, who do not believe you can create a sine wave from ones and zeros. Well you certainly can!

SACD discs have to be pressed and can not be laser burnt.

The next problem is that it is hugely expensive for the producers, and until recently no processing could take place in DSD code. This processing is unbelievably complex and expensive. No consumer products can process DSD, only decode it.

So this means that for level management, bass management and delay etc, you have to convert DSD to PCM, and therefore loose the theoretical advantage. Not only that SACD devices have to have both LPCM and LPCM decoders, which adds to expense and complication.

There is another problem though to SACD conversion to PCM. The speaker layout for Dolby Digital 5.1 and SACD are different. SACD suports up to five channels and a sub. However the surround channels for SACD are specified to be at the rear of the room spaced, not at the side position for Dolby and DTS spec. However when DSD is converted to PCM, the surround information gets sent to the surround and not the rear backs as it should be. This is a highly adverse effect.

So that means you have to convert DSD to analog in the player, and present it to the receiver or pre pro at the analog multichannel external inputs. Then you have no speaker leveling or bass management etc. Also classical SACDs do not have a sub channel, so there is no LFE output.

So to hear a multichannel SACD correctly you have to have a lot of DIY skills, as there is no commercial product to play them back correctly! What I have done is provide analog channel balancing and analog bass management just for SACD. I'm probably one of very few people on the planet who can listen to SACD correctly and as the artists and recording engineers intended.

The next issue is that SACD players have never achieved critical market penetration. The upshot is that SACDs are a money loosing proposition for the record companies and they are tired of it. Added to which SACD (DSD) can not accompany video.

So it all adds up to a dead ringer of a clunker system, that should never have seen the light of day.

Now we have Blue Ray, that can provide 7.1 channels of loss less audio via loss less compression codecs, and support bit and sampling rates to please any passing bat.

Since it is PCM based signal processing is now a mature technology that can easily do any required processing.

Since it can be coupled to video, one disc format can do A/V and audio only. Since it hitches to what is becoming a very popular and common home format, players to play the discs will be plentiful

Just this evening I watched my first opera in BD with DTS HD 7.1 master audio. It was Tannhauser from the FestspielHaus, Baden Baden, on Arthaus Music BD.

I was totally astonished. It was way beyond DVD and SACD. The smooth rich, detailed sound with colossal dynamic range was amazing. However what was truly unbelievable, was that I was not listening in my room but the opera house. The distance perspective was uncannily correct. As soon as the conductor came on the audience was all round me and right away I had the illusion of being in a huge space.

I never thought I would live to see the day were such a feat was possible. On this rig that you will see in my signature, it was at least 90% or more of being there. Just incredible!
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
and as far as the surround goes, from the two DVD-A discs ive listened to, Dolby PLII MS can do nearly the same thing. it's not like instruments are hard SL/SR, it just increases the spatiality and gives it that live performance feel that stereo recordings lack, as if the band was right in your listening room.
Because the recording you listened to did not have a SL / SR / RR / LR component. There is music performed with insurments and singers actually in the back or to the sides.

i also dont see the point in adding an LFE channel since most people using a sub have their receivers sending the LF to the sub in the first place.
To prevent clashes on the LFE channel: such as when the R and L signal are 180-degrees out of phase.

this is because a large percent of DVD-A discs utilize standard DD 5.1 which is 16/48, but there are capablities of 24/196
No that's absolutely not it. The problem is with the mastering. I have CDs that do not suffer from crappy masters and do not have the problems described.

The problem is not the CD, but incompetent mix and mastering engineers from the pop culture.
Exactly.

SACD discs have to be pressed and can not be laser burnt.
I don't understand how this is even convievably true. It would require that the laser could read something it could not write to... which on a writeable media makes no sense (obviously non-writeable media, such as commercial CDs, are pressed).

The next problem is that it is hugely expensive for the producers, and until recently no processing could take place in DSD code. This processing is unbelievably complex and expensive. No consumer products can process DSD, only decode it.
I'm thinking "Intel Core2". I can process protien folding, million-item 3D rendering, and video trans-coding: I can figure out DSD. It may not be in real-time: but that's not really signifigant.

There is another problem though to SACD conversion to PCM. The speaker layout for Dolby Digital 5.1 and SACD are different. SACD suports up to five channels and a sub. However the surround channels for SACD are specified to be at the rear of the room spaced, not at the side position for Dolby and DTS spec.
Enter 9-channel to the rescue.

So that means you have to convert DSD to analog in the player, and present it to the receiver or pre pro at the analog multichannel external inputs. Then you have no speaker leveling or bass management etc.
According to the manual from my (made by Sony) SACD player: the reason that it only puts out analog is due to copyright protection agreements. The web tells me many SACD players put out HDMI.

Now we have Blue Ray, that can provide 7.1 channels of loss less audio via loss less compression codecs, and support bit and sampling rates to please any passing bat.
There are three thing I want to see in a CD-replacement format. Two *might* happen.

1) Master it properly (this is not being done on the DVD-A's I've listened to.
2) Make sure it has 2-channel modes that work. (so if I'm gonna listen 7 channel, you'll likely need at least 9 on the disc)
3) Make sure it doesn't require an interface more complex than is on the front of a CD player / portable player / car head unit. That's another problem I had with at least one DVD-A.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
According to the manual from my (made by Sony) SACD player: the reason that it only puts out analog is due to copyright protection agreements. The web tells me many SACD players put out HDMI.
This is most confused area in SACD. Few people have it straight, and the players manuals are dishonest.

First no consumer products can perform any processing within DSD other than decoding.

No bass management and no delay or channel balancing, only volume.

If your receiver or prepro has no DSD decoder, and most don't, then the player must convert from DSD to PCM before sending the signal via HDMI.

If your pre pro or receiver has a DSD decoder, then HDMI 1.3 will support sending DSD to the processor via HDMI.

However if the receiver or pre pro does not convert DSD to PCM, there is still no bass management, delay or LFE ouput, or output of any kind to the sub. Also after PCM conversion and decode, the surround signal is sent to wrong speakers. So the whole issue is a mess.

To top it off many SACD players do not output at all from the DSD decoder, but always do a PCM conversion, but this is not admitted to in the manual.

I have no experience with DVD A as this never had any significant penetration among classical companies.

AES are making a heavy push to phase out SACD and DVD-A. I agree with that. They have a lot of educational materials and on line videos to members to assist the switch to audio only BD as a replacement.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
But is there a BD-Audio player? Are the BD-Audio disks being put out in a way that doesn't require a television to navigate menus to get to the sound?
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
depends on the sampling rate and bits-per-samples. the highest availible format is PCM 24/196 in 8 channels, now considering a regular CD is encoded in 16/44.1 and only two channels, each channel at 16/44.1 is 768kbps, now im going to spare the math to keep my post short but a 24/192 sample is 4704kbps per channel, multiply that times 8 and you get 37,632kbps considering a typical album is 60 minutes long this adds up to exactly 16.14 GB, so yes, it is possible that the highest quality music can and should be placed on a single-layer blu-ray disc.

and as far as the surround goes, from the two DVD-A discs ive listened to, Dolby PLII MS can do nearly the same thing. it's not like instruments are hard SL/SR, it just increases the spatiality and gives it that live performance feel that stereo recordings lack, as if the band was right in your listening room. i also dont see the point in adding an LFE channel since most people using a sub have their receivers sending the LF to the sub in the first place.



this is because a large percent of DVD-A discs utilize standard DD 5.1 which is 16/48, but there are capablities of 24/196

unless youre a young person with the ability to hear past 22khz, the 196khz sampling rates arent going to make too much of a difference, the 24bit per sample increase is what you will most likley notice because the sound is more fluid and is not rounded up or down to the nearest frequency as much as with 16bit samples
DVD-Audio uses MLP Lossless for the primary track. The poor SQ that Jerry is refering to has nothing to do with a compression codec or the soundtrack, it's the mixing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Audio

This is why members here implore you to lurk, and lurk a lot, and only post when you are completely informed. You have a firm understanding of concepts and how things work, but these basic levels of understanding do no transcend to every facet.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
But is there a BD-Audio player? Are the BD-Audio disks being put out in a way that doesn't require a television to navigate menus to get to the sound?
There is no BD only audio player produced, but there is a spec for manufacturers to follow. However all audio only BD discs must play on any BD player.

I don't know of manufacturers will produce any audio only BD players. I would hope they don't. The more payers are all the same to better the penetration and lower costs will be.

I don't see the big deal of having to have a screen for set up. Neither if my SACD players can be properly set up without a screen.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I don't know of manufacturers will produce any audio only BD players. I would hope they don't. The more payers are all the same to better the penetration and lower costs will be.

I don't see the big deal of having to have a screen for set up. Neither if my SACD players can be properly set up without a screen.
I'm not concerned about setup of the player in the first place: but about playing music. I often listend to music without powering up a display (particularly in the family room, where it requires bringing down a projection screen, uncapping a projector, etc).

Most of all, I'd like to see CDs get good mastering applied pretty universally. Yes, I would love to see a multi-channel (capable, it needs to deal with 2 speakers well) even higher resolution format: but I want it well mastered too, and I want to be able to listen to it on an audio system: not just an AV system with an active TV and through a menu system.

Though I suppose as long as I can rip the files: I can make the rest work.
 
R

Rasta Chutes

Audiophyte
kef 104ab

EJ,

104 ab, still available ? condition ? boxes ? location ? cost ?

contact at,

508.877.8470
 
R

Rasta Chutes

Audiophyte
kef 104ab for sale ?

I am interested in your 104s. had them years ago, want them again.

Contact directly at 617.354.8378 (USA)

in Cambridge, Mass.
 
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