Just upgraded my Ortofon stylus

[Squishman]

Just upgraded from Red to the Blue. My turntable is a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon. It came with an Ortofon Red cart. I just found out that the Blue stylus is a good upgrade and it uses the same cart, so that's cool. Not sure how many miles are on the red but I got it almost 4 years ago. I did read that Ortofon recommends brushing it after every play with no stylus cleaning fluid. So, I'll be doing that from now on too. Looking forward to the hearing the improvement. I just hope it is obvious and beyond subtle.

 

[Squishman]

Sounds better. More bass. A lot more. Instruments are sounding more obvious in the mix, like "wow, I never heard those maracas or that keyboard sound before!". Very worthwhile upgrade.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sounds better. More bass. A lot more. Instruments are sounding more obvious in the mix, like "wow, I never heard those maracas or that keyboard sound before!". Very worthwhile upgrade.

How did you compare? Sounds unlikely....

 

[TLS Guy]

How did you compare? Sounds unlikely....

The blue is an upgrade. The red has is an elliptical diamond tip on a metal shank. The blue has a nude elliptical diamond mounted to the cantilever.

The tip mass of the blue is less than the diamond/metal combo. It is also significantly more rigid.

The result will be better transient response. The FR of the blue is marginally more linear. FR of the red is 20Hz to 20KHz +3/-1 db. The FR of the blue is 20Hz to 20KHZ +2/-1 db.

A diamond tipped stylus versus a Nude diamond, is a definite benefit in favor of the nude diamond.

Here is an analysis of a transient from and actual LP of the red versus the blue.

The red.

The Blue.

Note those are not FR graphs, but an instantaneous spectrograph if an instant transient and NOT a steady state sign wave.

That improvement will be audible, and it won't actually be that subtle.

The analog world is quite different from the digital world as far as increased precision in the mechanics of the play back system has significant sonic improvement.

The take home is that increase in build quality and therefore cost does bring real improvements.

This is a forum where it seems to me few members have experienced really high end analog sources, both disc and tape. The results of higher end systems are far superior to the run of the mill. If you were in my room, you what be astonished at the quality of the analog sources, even the gear that is half a century old or more. The major difference is the time, effort and expense required to achieve that level of quality compared to current digital sources.

 

[lovinthehd]

The blue is an upgrade. The red has is an elliptical diamond tip on a metal shank. The blue has a nude elliptical diamond mounted to the cantilever.

The tip mass of the blue is less than the diamond/metal combo. It is also significantly more rigid.

The result will be better transient response. The FR of the blue is marginally more linear. FR of the red is 20Hz to 20KHz +3/-1 db. The FR of the blue is 20Hz to 20KHZ +2/-1 db.

A diamond tipped stylus versus a Nude diamond, is a definite benefit in favor of the nude diamond.

Here is an analysis of a transient from and actual LP of the red versus the blue.

The red.

The Blue.

Note those are not FR graphs, but an instantaneous spectrograph if an instant transient and NOT a steady state sign wave.

That improvement will be audible, and it won't actually be that subtle.

The analog world is quite different from the digital world as far as increased precision in the mechanics of the play back system has significant sonic improvement.

The take home is that increase in build quality and therefore cost does bring real improvements.

This is a forum where it seems to me few members have experienced really high end analog sources, both disc and tape. The results of higher end systems are far superior to the run of the mill. If you were in my room, you what be astonished at the quality of the analog sources, even the gear that is half a century old or more. The major difference is the time, effort and expense required to achieve that level of quality compared to current digital sources.

Nice but still doubtful as to such audibility differences, altho the medium/playback systems have serious problems in general....

 

[lovinthehd]

Especially a simple change of stylus assembly....but the magic is often in the consuming rather than the actual experience when it comes to vinyl.

 

[TLS Guy]

Especially a simple change of stylus assembly....but the magic is often in the consuming rather than the actual experience when it comes to vinyl.

I could not disagree more.

First of all in an MM cartridge the really important elements are in the cartridge assembly. In an MM cartridge, the stylus assembly contains, the stylus, cantilever, suspension, damping and the small moving magnets. The body, is just that, and only contains the fixed coils in which the small magnets move and the wiring. The stylus assembly is 95% of the loaf at least.

It is clear to me that you are not versed in the science, engineering and mechanics of disc reproduction. You are opinion can therefore not be a valued and considered opinion.

 

[lovinthehd]

The blue is an upgrade. The red has is an elliptical diamond tip on a metal shank. The blue has a nude elliptical diamond mounted to the cantilever.

The tip mass of the blue is less than the diamond/metal combo. It is also significantly more rigid.

The result will be better transient response. The FR of the blue is marginally more linear. FR of the red is 20Hz to 20KHz +3/-1 db. The FR of the blue is 20Hz to 20KHZ +2/-1 db.

A diamond tipped stylus versus a Nude diamond, is a definite benefit in favor of the nude diamond.

Here is an analysis of a transient from and actual LP of the red versus the blue.

The red.

The Blue.

Note those are not FR graphs, but an instantaneous spectrograph if an instant transient and NOT a steady state sign wave.

That improvement will be audible, and it won't actually be that subtle.

The analog world is quite different from the digital world as far as increased precision in the mechanics of the play back system has significant sonic improvement.

The take home is that increase in build quality and therefore cost does bring real improvements.

This is a forum where it seems to me few members have experienced really high end analog sources, both disc and tape. The results of higher end systems are far superior to the run of the mill. If you were in my room, you what be astonished at the quality of the analog sources, even the gear that is half a century old or more. The major difference is the time, effort and expense required to achieve that level of quality compared to current digital sources.

Then again you have limited experience with many types of music being stuck with your limited tastes.

I could not disagree more.

First of all in an MM cartridge the really important elements are in the cartridge assembly. In an MM cartridge, the stylus assembly contains, the stylus, cantilever, suspension, damping and the small moving magnets. The body, is just that, and only contains the fixed coils in which the small magnets move and the wiring. The stylus assembly is 95% of the loaf at least.

It is clear to me that you are not versed in the science, engineering and mechanics of disc reproduction. You are opinion can therefore not be a valued and considered opinion.

Having many mm carts over the years and good analog gear....your opinion on this and many other subjects leaves one lacking in details....

 

[Squishman]

I was not used to that bass so I went to turn it down at the sub. It was at 9:00 or 10:00! That amount of bass would have been at maybe 2:00 with the red. After a few LP's, I am used to it now. Yeah, more clarity is obvious too.

 

[PENG]

I was not used to that bass so I went to turn it down at the sub. It was at 9:00 or 10:00! That amount of bass would have been at maybe 2:00 with the red. After a few LP's, I am used to it now. Yeah, more clarity is obvious too.

If the difference in bass is that obvious to you then I dare say there is something else at play. If you go with TLSGuy's, that is based on science, the Red actually may have marginally stronger (not necessarily "better") deep bass response.

It is very difficult to do a good AB comparison between the two because it takes time to swap them even if you don't bother checking/re-adjusting the tracking angle.

Also, such comparisons are often highly subjective, and there are quite a few who posted their experience. Below is one that the author was good enough to explain how he set things up to shorter the time delay going from one to the other in his other comparison review also linked below, in which he wrote:

To be able to quickly swap between cartridges for back-to-back comparisons, I had all the cartridges mounted on separate headshells. I used my Audio-Technica AT-LP120USB turntable that has a tonearm with a “quick-release” that makes it easy to quickly swap between cartridges.

Ortofon 2M Red vs. Ortofon 2M Blue Comparison and Review | Vinyl Restart

Ortofon 2M Blue vs. VM540ML Comparison and Review | Vinyl Restart

Regardless, even if everything is set up in the best possible way for the comparison, any audible difference will still be subjected to one's preference, in terms of which one is "better" but then I am probably stating the obvious.

 

[highfigh]

Especially a simple change of stylus assembly....but the magic is often in the consuming rather than the actual experience when it comes to vinyl.

Cartridge bodies have been similar or the same across much of the line from many manufacturers, for a long time and the standard recommendation has been: buy the one you can more easily afford and upgrade the stylus later when you can, keeping the less expensive one as a spare and for LPs that aren't pristine. The differences are sometime subtle, sometimes far more obvious, depending on the brand. The only brands that don't have this ability have a fixed stylus, not user-replaceable ones.

If the difference has been shown and you still don't believe it, how does that fit with the typical skeptic view of "If you can hear it, it must be measurable"?

The specs below are for the Audio Technica AT-30E and AT-31E- I have an AT-30E and used an AT-30E. There was a definite difference between them, not only in the output which, by itself, is substantial.

Frequency : 15-25kHz, 15Hz-40kHz
Output: 0.28mV 0.4mV*
Channel separation: 25dB 30dB
Channel balance: 0.75dB within 1dB
Stylus shape: 0.3 x 0.7 elliptical 0.2x0.7 eliptical
Stylus construction: nude square shank nude
Tracking force: 1.4-2.0 1.2-1.8

The AT-31E also has a tapered cantilever, rather than a straight one.

 

[highfigh]

Alignment would need to be exactly the same in order for any comparison of phono cartridges to be valid.

 

[TLS Guy]

Then again you have limited experience with many types of music being stuck with your limited tastes.

Having many mm carts over the years and good analog gear....your opinion on this and many other subjects leaves one lacking in details....

I fail to see how my choice of program has any relevance to this discussion. That sounds like the reddest of herrings, in fact of luminous intensity.

What further details would you like?

 

[Squishman]

I do not have a switchable headshell. And there was not a cart switch, just the stylus as the Red and Blue use the same cart. Perhaps I unintentionally exaggerated the sub level. It was below say 11 for sure and the bass level would have been around 1 or 2:00 I think. Certainly higher.

 

[Mikado463]

Squish, congrats on the cartridge upgrade. I have no clue why 'ole Lovin feels compelled to rain on your parade but when it come to analog he is the ultimate skeptic. The same time he openly admits he has little to do with it anymore, go figure !

 

[TLS Guy]

Squish, congrats on the cartridge upgrade. I have no clue why 'ole Lovin feels compelled to rain on your parade but when it come to analog he is the ultimate skeptic. The same time he openly admits he has little to do with it anymore, go figure !

The heyday of the LP has passed to all intents and purposes. However it is a pleasure to still own a turntable. However, that are absolutely NOT plug and play. For really good results, they are the preserve of the obsessional. One small factor can ruin the result. Every detail has to be correct.

Keeping the best of the older gear performing at peak high level performance gives me a lot of satisfaction. I now really do have a creditable museum to show off some of the best of equipment from years gone by, and some older rare but interesting units, that a lot of enthusiasts never knew existed. Don't ask me why I do this, that is not the point!

 

[Replicant 7]

Squish, congrats on the cartridge upgrade. I have no clue why 'ole Lovin feels compelled to rain on your parade but when it come to analog he is the ultimate skeptic. The same time he openly admits he has little to do with it anymore, go figure !

Lol, @Mikado463, plus he messing with Doc all the time!

 

[TLS Guy]

Lol, @Mikado463, plus he messing with Doc all the time!

Happy to provide some entertainment from time to time!

 

[Squishman]

Squish, congrats on the cartridge upgrade. I have no clue why 'ole Lovin feels compelled to rain on your parade but when it come to analog he is the ultimate skeptic. The same time he openly admits he has little to do with it anymore, go figure !

Thx Mik! It was one the easier upgrades!

 

[3db]

The blue is an upgrade. The red has is an elliptical diamond tip on a metal shank. The blue has a nude elliptical diamond mounted to the cantilever.

The tip mass of the blue is less than the diamond/metal combo. It is also significantly more rigid.

The result will be better transient response. The FR of the blue is marginally more linear. FR of the red is 20Hz to 20KHz +3/-1 db. The FR of the blue is 20Hz to 20KHZ +2/-1 db.

A diamond tipped stylus versus a Nude diamond, is a definite benefit in favor of the nude diamond.

Here is an analysis of a transient from and actual LP of the red versus the blue.

The red.

The Blue.

Note those are not FR graphs, but an instantaneous spectrograph if an instant transient and NOT a steady state sign wave.

That improvement will be audible, and it won't actually be that subtle.

The analog world is quite different from the digital world as far as increased precision in the mechanics of the play back system has significant sonic improvement.

The take home is that increase in build quality and therefore cost does bring real improvements.

This is a forum where it seems to me few members have experienced really high end analog sources, both disc and tape. The results of higher end systems are far superior to the run of the mill. If you were in my room, you what be astonished at the quality of the analog sources, even the gear that is half a century old or more. The major difference is the time, effort and expense required to achieve that level of quality compared to current digital sources.

Thanks for the science. If I had not purchased my Oracle Delphi TT and kept my Project Xpression III, I would have went for the Ortofon Blue stylus upgrade myself.