Just Getting Started . . . Some Advice Appreciated.

[kodachrome]

first off, let me apologize. i like to type. a bit of an intro/story/question/advice post all wrapped into one.

Hey guys, I've been poring over the internet somewhat obsessively the past couple days and this community seems like a good place to ask a question i haven't seen answered satisfactorily even though it's been asked a couple times: nht absolute towers +sub vs the classic 3's plus sub.

I'm just starting out with the audio thing. Prior to this I had logitech 5.1, klipsch promedia 2.1 and Corsair 2.1. all from best buy or microcenter. That was my idea of a good multimedia setup.

Moreso I've been into headphones. I started with monster turbines, plain vanilla. Then i moved to turbine pro coppers, fischer audio, and finally settled on the turbine coppers and senn hd598 for mobile/at home listening. Really loved the 598. Glorious mids and wonderful soundstage, instrument separation was awesome. i love feeling of being surrounded by sound and able to pick out instruments; it gives me chills.

Fast forward a couple years, hard times, sold everything. Starting from scratch, not that i had a hifi system to begin with.

I went to a pawn america and picked up some pinnacle ac 650's after a little research on the cheap. could've had the infinity p162, i might go back and see if they're there. i picked up a yamaha htr 5550 receiver to go with it. haven't found much on it which leads me to believe it's probably garbage, but hey! it's better than nothing. the yamaha seems to be more than enough to get the speakers going.

running 16 gauge wire; oxygen free; might go larger just on principle but i've read it's really not worth it for a short run.

anyway. one thing that has been driving me NUTS, even after not having any sort of system to compare to for a while, is vocals and instrument separation on these ac 650's. male vocals especially get drowned out and disappear into a congested midrange. coming from the sennheiser hd 598 and mostly headphone listening it bugs the hell out of me.

so, a couple questions.

could it be a receiver issue? if it is, i'd like to simply upgrade the power source. easy solution. i don't suppose there are a lot of people here who listen to old speakers like the ac 650's or who have a low end old receiver like the 5550.

my other question is about a suitable upgrade. been reading a lot of good things for NHT bang/buck wise and especially about the neutrality and clarity, specifically of the absolute towers vs the classic 3's which seem to be a little warmer.

here's where i was thinking about going - if the ac 650 are just not that great of a speaker and they'll stay congested, then i need to get rid of them. it's driving me nuts. i was considering pairing the absolute towers with a sub after reading on stereophile that they're a bit brighter and more neutral than the classic 3's.

what's a better idea?

classic 3's plus sub or absolute towers plus sub?

i want a sub either way, because this is for multimedia purposes. home theater, video games and music. primarily video games (which have a lot of music) and simply music. other recommendations are welcome, simply leaning toward nht because nobody really seems to have any complaints and they also seem more neutral/slightly warm than anything. other contenders include the focal 807 w used but nobody wants to get rid of them and i don't know where to buy them.

basically my thought is a more analytical response that helps me sort out all the instruments without being too sterile + a sub. i want detail, but not too much.

looking to spend around 1000$ for the two speakers. i know i need to do an audition, but for the next month or so i cannot unless someone brings the speakers to my house. so that's kinda out the window, and where this wonderful community can hopefully provide some guidance. i'm not afraid to buy blind because i know anything will be a huge step up, in all likelihood. advice on a receiver or amp would be cool too. i'm all about the bang for buck, not necessarily low budget. i've even been looking into the dayton audio lego kits on the parts express, but don't quite have the faith in them being that people seem more familiar with brands. i'll probably try them at some point though.

room size? eeeeeeh. small. 14x14 with 8.5' ceiling. will periodically drag out to the living room which is more like 14' deep by 40' wide or so but is open into the kitchen, so much larger space to fill. and of course one speaker is therefore sending sound out into space whereas the other is maybe 5' away from a wall . . . speakers are about 6' apart, tweeters at ear level when on the couch. couch is maybe 7' away from the speakers, so all my listening is pretty much nearfield unless i'm blasting it while doing housework, which i do enjoy. even with the setup prior, in my small room, the mids were congested, so i do not think it's a result of the room.

Thanks for any advice/responses you all may have.

 

[KEW]

1) I am not familiar with the ac 650's, so cannot help you know if they are the source of your problem.
2) I am a little confused, is this a computer speaker set up? How far away will the speakers be from the listening position?
3) Your budget is $1000 for two speakers - I think the SVS Ultra Bookshelves are a good option to consider (the classic 3's are also a good option. I wish you could listen to both for same time comparison, because they sound pretty different, but both good). Since the Classic 4 towers are $1200 each, I don't see how you could even ask the question since they work out to $2400! In any case, your room is not that big that you need towers. The bookshelves will fill that room nicely! Looking at SVS, $500 gets you 1ea. Ultra bookshelf or 1 Prime floorstander. This is analgous to quality (Ultra) vs quantity (Prime). Since the Ultras have enough quanitiy (output) for your medium room it is a no-brainer to choose the Ultras.

looking to spend around 1000$ for the two speakers. i know i need to do an audition, but for the next month or so i cannot unless someone brings the speakers to my house. so that's kinda out the window, and where this wonderful community can hopefully provide some guidance.

Both NHT and SVS will bring the speakers to your house!
SVS give you an audition period of 45 days. If you don't like them, they will refund your money and pay for shipping both ways so it costs you nothing!!!
NHT does the same thing except the audition period is 30 days.

So if you can float them on your credit card, you can compare the Ultras against the Classic 3's in your own home for a couple of solid weeks!

 

[kodachrome]

Ah, my apologies. I was referring to the absolute towers, not the classic 4 towers.

How far away? 10 feet or less if i am watching movies, playing games or relaxing on the couch. I don't listen at loud volumes for the most part. I figure I can turn down a larger speaker for normal listening and crank it when I'm doing housework or just in the mood. You have a good point, though, regarding quality vs quantity, and it is neat to hear that those companies would do auditions. Perhaps this won't be so difficult after all.

Basically all my sound- my computer, and any consoles-will be going through these speakers. I don't watch tv, just movies/series in the computer or Netflix, really. If I want to relax in my room for an extended period of time I have no qualms simply moving the equipment. Would only take a couple minutes. Either way, most listening would occur at 10' or less. Since my computer is my home theater, I really don't find myself much closer or farther unless I'm working at a desk on a laptop in my room, in which case the ac 650 or some other future upgrade would do just fine, or going about my business, making meals, etc.

I will be moving into a small apartment soon from a house, with less space to fill if I'm doing dishes/eating/cleaning so I'm beginning to think the towers would be overkill. I agree with you. A pair of bookshelves and a musical sub would probably be fine. I just heard that a 3way setup helps keep things from getting muddy, and as that is more important to me than spl, getting a larger 3way unit and then turning it down seemed logical. If that is not the case, then I have no worries. . Thanks for your time.

Also, the 1000$ isn't really a hard limit, but I'd like to keep it around there-ish.

*edit*

Reading about the svs right now on here and elsewhere. Sounds very much up my alley (doesn't it always?) for what I am trying to achieve with a system for dedicated mids/highs coupled with a sub. Thanks!

 

[Swerd]

Hey guys, I've been poring over the internet somewhat obsessively the past couple days and this community seems like a good place to ask a question i haven't seen answered satisfactorily even though it's been asked a couple times: nht absolute towers +sub vs the classic 3's plus sub.

I picked up some pinnacle ac 650's… i picked up a yamaha htr 5550 receiver to go with it… the yamaha seems to be more than enough to get the speakers going.

one thing that has been driving me NUTS, even after not having any sort of system to compare to for a while, is vocals and instrument separation on these ac 650's. male vocals especially get drowned out and disappear into a congested midrange. coming from the sennheiser hd 598 and mostly headphone listening it bugs the hell out of me.

Are these http://www.pinnaclespeakers.com/ac650.html the speakers you have? They are fairly typical looking 2-way speakers with a 6½” mid woofer and a ¾” dome tweeter. The crossover frequency is said to be 2.5 kHz with 4th order crossover slopes. More often, I see 1” dome tweeters in this kind of 2-way.

So my first guess is that there is a gap between the low frequency performance of the tweeter and the high frequency performance of the mid woofer. For many ¾” tweeters, 2.5 kHz may be lower than they can go. Similarly, many 6½” mid woofers can’t deliver widely dispersed sound at that high a frequency. The result will be sound with a hole in the middle. I haven’t heard them, so this is only an educated guess. Your description of the congested mid range sound, especially how vocals and instruments seem to get lost, is a good description of the sound of 2-way speakers that suffer such a gap across the mid range.

When you also described how male vocals get muddled in a congested mid range, something else comes to mind. The mid woofer’s bass cabinet tuning might be too ambitious. (In technical terms, this is called a high Q cabinet design.) It boosts the lower bass response around roughly 100 Hz, but comes at the cost of making the woofer ring on and on at lower frequencies when it should stop, creating a muddiness that blurs upper bass and lower mid range, drowning out male vocals.

could it be a receiver issue (yamaha htr 5550)? if it is, i'd like to simply upgrade the power source.

More than likely, the receiver is not to blame. If it has enough power to get those speakers going, it’s good enough. Moving to a higher powered model will not solve the sound problem you described. I’d guess it’s those speakers.

NHTs are not a bad speaker choice in general. They are known for an overall neutral balance and a clear mid range. They also don’t get greedy with the bass tuning of cabinets. That’s what sub woofers are for. I haven’t heard the Classic 3 model that you mentioned.

If you’re looking to spend about $1000 for a pair of speakers, there are some other very good choices in book shelf speakers. All of them are known for clear mid range, tight un-muddy sounding bass, and are excellent at presenting a realistic sound image. I’ve heard all of them, and readily recommend them. They are all available only through Internet Direct purchase from the makers.

Salk SongSurround I – Although these are presented as surround speakers, they make excellent speakers on their own. Salk has the best cabinet finishes I've seen, many at standard price.

Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 – These are rather similar to the Salk SongSurround I in price and sound quality.

Philharmonic Audio – look at two models:

BMR Philharmonitor, a more expensive 3-way a truly nice 3-way stand mounted speaker.

Affordable Accuracy Monitor, a much less expensive 2-way based on the Dayton Audio BR-1 kit with some improvements to the crossover that smooth things out in the range where both the mid woofer & tweeter operate.

 

[kodachrome]

Thanks for the recommendations!

Yes, those are the speakers. Good to hear that I'm stepping into a price range that alleviates these kinds of issues. I messed around with a parametric eq on my music app and cleaned up the male vocals at the expense of richness in the voice, it makes things better on the whole but still not that good...

I'll be taking at least a cursory look into all suggestions made here. I'm a bit of a research fiend, so thanks again!

 

[Swerd]

Thanks for the recommendations!

Yes, those are the speakers. Good to hear that I'm stepping into a price range that alleviates these kinds of issues. I messed around with a parametric eq on my music app and cleaned up the male vocals at the expense of richness in the voice, it makes things better on the whole but still not that good...

I'll be taking at least a cursory look into all suggestions made here. I'm a bit of a research fiend, so thanks again!

If you enjoy looking things up on the internet, the owner of Philharmonic Audio, and the crossover designer for Salk is a guy named Dennis Murphy. He was known among DIY speaker builders for years as The Man. See MurphyBlaster Productions.

When I got into DIY speaker building years ago, more than a few experienced people told me, don't try to design your own, just build what he designs. They were right .

 

[KEW]

I just heard that a 3way setup helps keep things from getting muddy, and as that is more important to me than spl, getting a larger 3way unit and then turning it down seemed logical. If that is not the case, then I have no worries. .

Swerd knows more about this than I do, but I do not believe a 3-way has any inherent advantage (unless it is wanting to get seriously deep bass). Sounds like your problem was a poorly designed 2-way!

BTW, I recommended the SVS because I have personally heard them. All of the recommendations Swerd offers have a great reputation. Among them, I have heard the Affordable Accuracy Monitors and I can say that they are very nice and their mids are very transparent and detailed. That really is no surprise - Murphy is a master at designing crossovers!