Is there any way to defeat 3:2 pulldown?

[docferdie]

Is there any combination of DVD player and display device currently available that allows you to watch 24 fps content at 24 fps?

 

[cornelius]

It helps to have a progressive scan DVD player and compatible TV. It's not going to run at 24, but the 3:2 problem is improved.

 

[Colonel_Tomb]

It helps to have a progressive scan DVD player and compatible TV. It's not going to run at 24, but the 3:2 problem is improved.

If I understand his question correctly, he's not asking how to improve the display of material that originated at 24 fps, he's asking if he can see it at native 24 fps, same as if it were projected film. The answer is no, not with video equipment. The DVD format is encoded at 30 fps, DVD players output at 30 fps, and TVs display at 30 fps.

I see what he's getting at, though. We could have a special source format (let's call it "DVD-24") that's actually encoded with 24-fps video, then special players with "DVD-24 mode" that output at 24 fps (progressive-scan), then a TV that displays at 24 fps. It's theoretically possible, I guess, but the market for it wouldn't justify the investment. And do we really believe it'd look any better than a high-quality progressive-scan player with 3:2 pulldown?

 

[Audioholics]

We could have a special source format (let's call it "DVD-24") that's actually encoded with 24-fps video, then special players with "DVD-24 mode" that output at 24 fps (progressive-scan)

Content on DVDs IS already stored at 24 fps, though you are right about needing a player to actually NOT convert to 30 fps - but this would lead to all sorts of problems.

One of the coolest new technologies is 3:3 whereby the video is played back at a 72 Hz rate instead of 60Hz (note that 24 divides evenly into 72Hz.) This results in a complete elimination of judder motion and smooth screen panning. It's amazing and Pioneer is one of the companies that's been doing it.

2:3 = DVD (24 fps) @ 60Hz refresh = 60 fps plus judder AA BB BC CD DD (not quite accurate with progressive error correction, more like A A B B B C C D D D) but note that you get a pattern of 2 and 3 - that's judder and it can be observed as a jerky horizontal motion during pans.

3:3 = DVD (24 fps) @ 72Hz refresh x 3 = 72 fps no judder A A A B B B C C C D D D. See how each field on the DVD is played back 3 times at a 72Hz rate thus enabling a 1:1 representation from what's on the DVD to the video playback system. because of the adjusted frequency, the timing accuracy is maintained (nothing slows down or speeds up from the original 24fps film timing. This is the way all video systems shoudl perform in the near future (we hope.)

So while your original post is about 24 fps, perhaps what you really want is a high-end 3:3 system to eliminate judder and provide a 1:1 transfer of film to video?

 

[docferdie]

So while your original post is about 24 fps, perhaps what you really want is a high-end 3:3 system to eliminate judder and provide a 1:1 transfer of film to video?

What home display devices other than CRT vga monitors support a refresh rate of 72 Hz. I have a DLP TV with an HTPC and have tried the 72 Hz refresh rate however upon further investigation I read somewhere that the DLP colorwheel is set at 60 Hz despite the TV set supporting other refresh rates such as 72 and 85.

Does plasma display true 72 frames per second?

 

[Audioholics]

Check out my link above, Pioneer has plasmas that do this. There are also other companies starting to catch on to 3:3 which in my opinion is the future. You are correct in that you can't just "do 72Hz" on any display.

 

[cornelius]

3:3 sounds cool.

BTW, there were originally 2 questions asked so I answered both.

 

[Rob Babcock]

How about fixed pixel displays? Is there any reason that DLP or LCDs couldn't display at other freqs?

Pans in a theater always look jerky and discontinuous to me, too. I always figured it was because 24 fps isn't fast enough to capture fast motion. Since we have a century of film camera experience as a paradigm I doubt we'll see a change, but I always thought a big advantage of overhauling our TV standard would be to allow for a higher frame rate. You'd think if digital projection was to catch on in theaters we could do this, although "legacy material" would always have the old rates.

But I don't really know enough about the nuts & bolts of movie making to speculate on the possibility of doing this.

 

[Colonel_Tomb]

What home display devices other than CRT vga monitors support a refresh rate of 72 Hz. I have a DLP TV with an HTPC and have tried the 72 Hz refresh rate however upon further investigation I read somewhere that the DLP colorwheel is set at 60 Hz despite the TV set supporting other refresh rates such as 72 and 85.

Does plasma display true 72 frames per second?

The current edition of The Perfect Vision incluides a test of the Pioneer PDP-4340HD 43-inch plasma, and it features 3:3 pulldown and a 72-Hz refresh rate.

 

[djoxygen]

Pans in a theater always look jerky and discontinuous to me, too. I always figured it was because 24 fps isn't fast enough to capture fast motion. Since we have a century of film camera experience as a paradigm I doubt we'll see a change, but I always thought a big advantage of overhauling our TV standard would be to allow for a higher frame rate. You'd think if digital projection was to catch on in theaters we could do this, although "legacy material" would always have the old rates.

But I don't really know enough about the nuts & bolts of movie making to speculate on the possibility of doing this.

I'm with you on the slow frame rates, Rob. Watching stuff shot on film, whether it's shown on film or telecine'd up to video rates is like watching one of those vintage running horse (or man) loops. 29.97 video source is more tolerable, but I'm hoping that a generation brought up in front of 85fps Doom and Quake games on their PCs will want to watch (and make) their movies in 1080/60p so I can avoid the headaches in my old age.

My day job is in a company that does video production (among other things) and people here treasure film because of its "slowness". I just haven't been able get on board with that.

 

[seanjwhite]

is the look of a movie theater really possible at home?

Okay, I'm hoping someone will know what I'm talking about and can answer my ultimate question (which I'll get to eventually...if you bear with me).

I don't know if my definitions of "judder" and "flicker" and "film-like" are the same as everyone else's, but, thinking that 3-3 pulldown was what I was looking for, I saw a Pioneer Elite plasma showing a feature film at Good Guys and still didn't see what I wanted. Basically, what I'd like to see is that fluid and, yes, BLURRY movement of objects and scenery (on pans) through the frame that you get in the theater. You know what I mean? That smoothness that almost makes you think you're watching video on film?

I thought this frame-rate discrepancy stuff was at the root of my quest, but, having seen the Pioneer Elite for myself, I have to wonder. The Good Guys sales rep said that it might be a matter of cable connection (as they didn't have the best connections on demo in the store), but that doesn't seem right. I could believe that the connection would affect things like color, brightness, and even resolution, but something like refresh rate or whether the image is interlaced or progressive? I would think that was simply a matter of hardware, not wiring.

If you're wondering exactly what theater-like quality I'm talking about, try this experiment, which I discovered several years ago. Play any of your live-action-movie DVDs (such as "Glory," on which this works really well) on your regular TV, and watch it in a dark room while wearing TWO pairs of sunglasses. (NOTE: Don't do this often or even a second time. It can be pretty wearing on the eyes.) For some reason, this really helps achieve that film-like motion blur. Granted, it makes the picture much darker and dulls color, but, speaking only for myself, that's not my biggest priority when it comes to home theater. (if I could achieve that motion blur with full brightness and color, I'd jump on it, but call me weird; I really, really crave the motion blur.)

So my ultimate question is...is this effect possible at home? Is cable connection really that important to it? What do I need to buy and/or do?

Any input would be much appreciated.