Is there an easy proportional way to defend high-cost sub purchases?

[Golfx]

I have struggled with this question. Seems like a $2300 monoprice can exceed some CEA-2010 SPL/Hz lower measurements of a 10K Perlisten or 8k+ Funk/Harbottle. Cost becomes a predictable denominator for some people for dollars spent/spl.

So what are our comparative metrics? Seems to lead to details for the CEA-2010 standard and its tolerance for high distortion percentages at lower frequencies (~30+%) and then discerning the differences in long term compression tests. But those details are obvious to @shadyJ (probably should have just sent him a PM) and other knowledgeable reviewers. But how to explain those to a spouse or friend? I understand there are cheaper internet direct companies. But Funk/Harbottle are also internet direct. I saw this summary https://www.harbottleaudio.com/post/the-correlation-between-the-quality-of-a-subwoofer-and-its-price-tag on Harbottle’s website but it does not lead to simplification.

I also know that Perlisten has a distributor/dealer model with each needing a share of profit. But the D215s wowed our favorite reviewer and now me as an owner.

Any ideas guys?

 

[TLS Guy]

I have struggled with this question. Seems like a $2300 monoprice can exceed some CEA-2010 SPL/Hz lower measurements of a 10K Perlisten or 8k+ Funk/Harbottle. Cost becomes a predictable denominator for some people for dollars spent/spl.

So what are our comparative metrics? Seems to lead to details for the CEA-2010 standard and its tolerance for high distortion percentages at lower frequencies (~30+%) and then discerning the differences in long term compression tests. But those details are obvious to @shadyJ (probably should have just sent him a PM) and other knowledgeable reviewers. But how to explain those to a spouse or friend? I understand there are cheaper internet direct companies. But Funk/Harbottle are also internet direct. I saw this summary https://www.harbottleaudio.com/post/the-correlation-between-the-quality-of-a-subwoofer-and-its-price-tag on Harbottle’s website but it does not lead to simplification.

I also know that Perlisten has a distributor/dealer model with each needing a share of profit. But the D215s wowed our favorite reviewer and now me as an owner.

Any ideas guys?

You have to consider the design. If you go sealed like Perlisten and want high output and bass extension, then it will be very, very expensive.

If you use a ported or TL design you will need much less power and your drivers will cost only a fraction of the sealed speaker cost, but you will end up with a physically larger structure.

I personally think good ported designs and especially TLs sound far more natural. TLs in particular couple to the room in a unique way.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think you first need to convince yourself, then others should be easy. Can't say I've ever tried to justify anything to a spouse, as am single, but can't say I've ever tried to discuss such with friends at all (and none care about audio gear at all). My last few subs are diy anyways.

 

[Golfx]

I think you first need to convince yourself, then others should be easy. Can't say I've ever tried to justify anything to a spouse, as am single, but can't say I've ever tried to discuss such with friends at all (and none care about audio gear at all). My last few subs are diy anyways.

I’ve come to the realization that cost is not an audible factor in my purchases. Oh I can talk about stroke efficiency, proper shorting rings, push/pull dual drivers, cutting edge DSP keeping heat down and resulting lower distortion. But the ported Monoprice beats the math so what then—sound quality of the bass?

 

[lovinthehd]

I’ve come to the realization that cost is not an audible factor in my purchases. Oh I can talk about stroke efficiency, proper shorting rings, push/pull dual drivers, cutting edge DSP keeping heat down and resulting lower distortion. But the ported Monoprice beats the math so what then—sound quality of the bass?

I'm more about sub performance than saying a sub has particular sound qualities at that end of the frequency spectrum. YMMV. I can build a helluva sub for $2300, tho.

 

[Golfx]

I'm more about sub performance than saying a sub has particular sound qualities at that end of the frequency spectrum. YMMV. I can build a helluva sub for $2300, tho.

DIY is a whole other side to this hobby. Lots of added skill needed. You have my respect.

 

[ryanosaur]

All I can think of as part of this conversation is looking at the distortion and compression that you may experience. That's the one element I can see where Cody and Nathan seem to excel using Cody's Drivers. The old Ricci measurements were truly textbook and showed no compression. I don't recall how the Perlisten fared in that test, though I know it was a very strong performer.

Since we don't hear bass the same way we hear higher frequencies, many aspects really aren't that important to pursue when it comes to SQ, outside of distortion.

In my mind, you find what SPL you need, and what extension you want...

If a Monolith Sub is cheaper and 3 outperform a Perlisten or Harbottle... or are so close that it doesn't matter... then why by 2 or 3 of those more expensive Subs when you can get what you want for much less?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to get a few of Cody's raw Drivers to build and play with. There is something exciting about that level of engineering that he espouses.

Beyond that, why does it matter to attempt justifying the cost of "your" system. There is little reason outside of household finances that this should matter. Unless of course you are being asked advice by a friend, but even then there are easy ways to discuss things without getting into values based discussion.

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm more about sub performance than saying a sub has particular sound qualities at that end of the frequency spectrum. YMMV. I can build a helluva sub for $2300, tho.

You could build a Sub with a Harbottle Driver for that much! And if done well, it WILL be one helluva Sub!

 

[Golfx]

All I can think of as part of this conversation is looking at the distortion and compression that you may experience. That's the one element I can see where Cody and Nathan seem to excel using Cody's Drivers. The old Ricci measurements were truly textbook and showed no compression. I don't recall how the Perlisten fared in that test, though I know it was a very strong performer.

Since we don't hear bass the same way we hear higher frequencies, many aspects really aren't that important to pursue when it comes to SQ, outside of distortion.

In my mind, you find what SPL you need, and what extension you want...

If a Monolith Sub is cheaper and 3 outperform a Perlisten or Harbottle... or are so close that it doesn't matter... then why by 2 or 3 of those more expensive Subs when you can get what you want for much less?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to get a few of Cody's raw Drivers to build and play with. There is something exciting about that level of engineering that he espouses.

Beyond that, why does it matter to attempt justifying the cost of "your" system. There is little reason outside of household finances that this should matter. Unless of course you are being asked advice by a friend, but even then there are easy ways to discuss things without getting into values based discussion.

Good answer and yes I am advising a friend.

I try not to talk price around my wife. She tolerates my hobby.

Regarding advising my friend, I may have to just use reduced distortion.

 

[ryanosaur]

Good answer and yes I am advising a friend.

I try not to talk price around my wife. She tolerates my hobby.

Regarding advising my friend, I may have to just use reduced distortion.

Until one has heard a cr@ppy Sub, it isn't something that can be described. The thing is that for almost everybody including most of us, that level of extreme engineering isn't really necessary.

As I recall the Monolith 13 and 16s, they are pretty exemplary examples of well designed Subs, with the 12 and 15" models falling just a hair short.

The use case for maximizing a 3-sub purchase from Perlisten or Harbottle/Funk is exceedingly rare.

Hell, my two X13s still impress me, and the older Monolith Subs are likely slightly better than mine. (Designed by the same company, Clarity Audio.)

I'm very eager to see what the new Hsu does out in that infamous Chicago Parking Lot. If they can hold their own against the Monoliths... oh man!

 

[Golfx]

Until one has heard a cr@ppy Sub, it isn't something that can be described. The thing is that for almost everybody including most of us, that level of extreme engineering isn't really necessary.

As I recall the Monolith 13 and 16s, they are pretty exemplary examples of well designed Subs, with the 12 and 15" models falling just a hair short.

The use case for maximizing a 3-sub purchase from Perlisten or Harbottle/Funk is exceedingly rare.

Hell, my two X13s still impress me, and the older Monolith Subs are likely slightly better than mine. (Designed by the same company, Clarity Audio.)

I'm very eager to see what the new Hsu does out in that infamous Chicago Parking Lot. If they can hold their own against the Monoliths... oh man!

You make me smile.

 

[ryanosaur]

You make me smile.

Aw shucks, cupcake. *blushes

 

[shadyJ]

I have struggled with this question. Seems like a $2300 monoprice can exceed some CEA-2010 SPL/Hz lower measurements of a 10K Perlisten or 8k+ Funk/Harbottle. Cost becomes a predictable denominator for some people for dollars spent/spl.

So what are our comparative metrics? Seems to lead to details for the CEA-2010 standard and its tolerance for high distortion percentages at lower frequencies (~30+%) and then discerning the differences in long term compression tests. But those details are obvious to @shadyJ (probably should have just sent him a PM) and other knowledgeable reviewers. But how to explain those to a spouse or friend? I understand there are cheaper internet direct companies. But Funk/Harbottle are also internet direct. I saw this summary https://www.harbottleaudio.com/post/the-correlation-between-the-quality-of-a-subwoofer-and-its-price-tag on Harbottle’s website but it does not lead to simplification.

I also know that Perlisten has a distributor/dealer model with each needing a share of profit. But the D215s wowed our favorite reviewer and now me as an owner.

Any ideas guys?

This is an interesting subject and certainly merits a good response. I am a bit busy at the moment but will try to add something useful tomorrow. I think there is something to be said both for raw numbers as well as a more nuanced look at the data.

 

[Golfx]

This is an interesting subject and certainly merits a good response. I am a bit busy at the moment but will try to add something useful tomorrow. I think there is something to be said both for raw numbers as well as a more nuanced look at the data.

Thanks Shady. I will await your response. The silence I get from other forums bears out the difficulty of finding a proportional answer.

 

[shadyJ]

I think that one part of the answer to this question is how do the subs behave when driven hard. For most subs, when the coil isn't pushed too far from center in the magnetic gap, and there isn't any other aspects causing nonlinear performance such as induction-induced distortion or maybe time domain problems from suboptimal porting or mechanical noises such flutter noise from the surround, I don't think you could tell a super-expensive sub from a cheap one (as long as the subs don't stray out of their intended bandwidth). But the compromises of inexpensive subs make the circumstances that they can retain that very high-fidelity playback dwindle as the price goes down. For example, the $270 Dayton SUB-1500 can sound pretty good, but just don't push it too hard, especially on content with real energy below 40Hz. The basic mechanism of the electromagnetic motor is the same on all of them (until someone makes a sub using a plasma arc as a bass transducer) But all those compromises add up.

As far as qualitative playback goes, I wouldn't even pay much attention to CEA-2010 burst numbers. Despite its distortion-limited thresholds, it really is a measure of sheer output. Subs can have a very different sound despite hitting the same CEA-2010 numbers. For example, CEA-2010 does not do a very good job of registering port noise as a noise limiting factor, so a port-noisy sub can hit some pretty big numbers, even though it doesn't sound great when nearing those numbers. A surprising amount of flutter noise from the suspension can get in there too. And CEA-2010 permits a lot of distortion before the results are invalid, about 40% THD. And what is the composition of those distortion products? For example, third-order products sound a lot different from fourth-order, and would be potentially be more audible, especially on music, yet the limits permit 5dB greater third-order products than fourth-order. Do not use base CEA-2010 numbers as a qualitative metric!

But this is all just talking about performance. Most expensive subs are luxury products, and you face an upcharge for things like nice finishes, higher build-quality, elaborate packing, and extensive feature sets. For someone who is just going to shove their sub in the dark corner of a mancave, none of that stuff matters very much. But if you want your stuff to feel like they have some substance and want to keep your room looking nice, it's a worthwhile expense.

 

[Golfx]

I think that one part of the answer to this question is how do the subs behave when driven hard. For most subs, when the coil isn't pushed too far from center in the magnetic gap, and there isn't any other aspects causing nonlinear performance such as induction-induced distortion or maybe time domain problems from suboptimal porting or mechanical noises such flutter noise from the surround, I don't think you could tell a super-expensive sub from a cheap one (as long as the subs don't stray out of their intended bandwidth). But the compromises of inexpensive subs make the circumstances that they can retain that very high-fidelity playback dwindle as the price goes down. For example, the $270 Dayton SUB-1500 can sound pretty good, but just don't push it too hard, especially on content with real energy below 40Hz. The basic mechanism of the electromagnetic motor is the same on all of them (until someone makes a sub using a plasma arc as a bass transducer) But all those compromises add up.

As far as qualitative playback goes, I wouldn't even pay much attention to CEA-2010 burst numbers. Despite its distortion-limited thresholds, it really is a measure of sheer output. Subs can have a very different sound despite hitting the same CEA-2010 numbers. For example, CEA-2010 does not do a very good job of registering port noise as a noise limiting factor, so a port-noisy sub can hit some pretty big numbers, even though it doesn't sound great when nearing those numbers. A surprising amount of flutter noise from the suspension can get in there too. And CEA-2010 permits a lot of distortion before the results are invalid, about 40% THD. And what is the composition of those distortion products? For example, third-order products sound a lot different from fourth-order, and would be potentially be more audible, especially on music, yet the limits permit 5dB greater third-order products than fourth-order. Do not use base CEA-2010 numbers as a qualitative metric!

But this is all just talking about performance. Most expensive subs are luxury products, and you face an upcharge for things like nice finishes, higher build-quality, elaborate packing, and extensive feature sets. For someone who is just going to shove their sub in the dark corner of a mancave, none of that stuff matters very much. But if you want your stuff to feel like they have some substance and want to keep your room looking nice, it's a worthwhile expense.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Shady. I kind of knew the answer was “in the details.” Your reply helps me because it gathers the additive mechanical performance limits of cheaper subs’ equipment and designs. Then compares those performances but also adds luxury finishes and build quality to the final equation. As for Perlisten I would add their excellent DSP monitoring system to keep distortion down as a plus to their build quality. Thanks Again to everyone for responding.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There is no way to defend spending $10K on a sub (or speaker) to anyone who doesn't want to spend anywhere near that price.

Diminishing returns is what most people think about. It's easy to see that much less expensive ported subs can output more bass than some $10K sealed sub.

The salient question is, can you truly HEAR the difference in THD% among these subs in terms of subjective sound quality? After auditioning different subs, many people cannot hear the difference and actually prefer the subs with more bass output and better efficiency, which usually means they prefer the less expensive ported subs.

The other question is, how MUCH bass do most people actually desire/use?

When I was younger, I thought it was fun and cool to spend a lot of money on speakers, subs, electronics. People go through different stages in life.

Everyone has to determine what is important to them. If $10K subs and speakers and electronics are important to them at that time in their life, then it's worth every penny. If it's not important to them, then it's a 100% ripoff diminishing return.

 

[Golfx]

I came from large mid priced ported subs. The D215s just make me smile when I listen. So your point about changing preferences rings true.

The friend I am advising has my old system and is wanting to upgrade his entire system. Subs are our current topic. I know he will go sealed. He is just debating JTR’s RS1 or Perlisten’s D15 or maybe Perlisten’s new R18. He toyed briefly with Harbottle/Funk but didn’t want to wait the 4-6 months for bespoke subs.

 

[Kleinst]

There is no way to defend spending $10K on a sub (or speaker) to anyone who doesn't want to spend anywhere near that price.

Diminishing returns is what most people think about. It's easy to see that much less expensive ported subs can output more bass than some $10K sealed sub.

The salient question is, can you truly HEAR the difference in THD% among these subs in terms of subjective sound quality? After auditioning different subs, many people cannot hear the difference and actually prefer the subs with more bass output and better efficiency, which usually means they prefer the less expensive ported subs.

The other question is, how MUCH bass do most people actually desire/use?

When I was younger, I thought it was fun and cool to spend a lot of money on speakers, subs, electronics. People go through different stages in life.

Everyone has to determine what is important to them. If $10K subs and speakers and electronics are important to them at that time in their life, then it's worth every penny. If it's not important to them, then it's a 100% ripoff diminishing return.

You make a good point in how MUCH bass do people really want? There are times I play scenes just to see how they sound. But I never listen like that day to day at all. And frankly, having bass that overpowers speakers doesn't sound right so you have to proportionately dial in. And then unless you are listening amazingly loud, I'm guessing I use a fraction of what I have. So what difference would someone see if they aren't pushing the limits of their subs (assuming they have generally good subs and are dialed in appropriately)

It's kind of an expensive experiment to find out and a disproportionate investment vs what some might have in their speakers, receiver, amp etc.

 

[isolar8001]

You make a good point in how MUCH bass do people really want? There are times I play scenes just to see how they sound. But I never listen like that day to day at all. And frankly, having bass that overpowers speakers doesn't sound right so you have to proportionately dial in. And then unless you are listening amazingly loud, I'm guessing I use a fraction of what I have. So what difference would someone see if they aren't pushing the limits of their subs (assuming they have generally good subs and are dialed in appropriately)

It's kind of an expensive experiment to find out and a disproportionate investment vs what some might have in their speakers, receiver, amp etc.

Being in car audio for many years told me how much bass people really want....they want so much that if they cant hear anything but bass, they grin from ear to busted ear.

Many many, home systems I've heard suffer the same fate..bass/bass/bass and nothing but bass.
It really gets to the point where its comedic.