Is listening at reference level dangerous?

[yepimonfire]

Listening at reference level measured in dB C about 70% of the time the average dB level is about 75-80 dB with short peaks around 95-100dB. I generally listen to music at 75dB so no danger there.

 

[killdozzer]

Somewhere in Audioholics articles there was a link to this. Knowing what Audioholcs are all about, I figured; since it is linked it should be accurate to a certain level. However, an interpretation might be of some use. People are still debating whether it’s loudness that damages the ears or all sorts of distortions.

The table shows the SPL of garbage disposal, which I don’t have, but a diesel truck 10 meters away wouldn’t bother me for up to 3 or 4 hours. And that is supposed to be 90dB.

I don’t really know what damages the ear, but I can offer two arguments towards it being the distortion and not the loudness itself, although it is possible this holds true up to a certain SPL.

First argument is ‘rumble’ which is supposed to be bad for you but not at all that audible.

The second argument has to do with evolution; all human senses warn him of damaging or potentially harmful exposure and or consequences. Bad smell - spoiled food, bright light - potentially blinding, high heat - burns…

It is quite possible that ‘bad’ sound is more harmful and that it is not simply SPL. Perhaps it’s a combination of the two. However, if you go along this road, personal preferences should be taken into account. So it shouldn’t be what one like, but what is bad for your ears.

There’s also an article here about hearing damage, and a thread with some new research saying it is not the age that diminishes your hearing abilities, but exposure to damaging sound. And these are connected simply because if you work in construction for 30years you’ve been exposed to harmful sound more than someone working in construction for 5years.

 

[herbu]

Is listening at reference levels dangerous?
It depends on 3 things:
1) What are you listening to?
2) How close is your nearest neighbor?
3) Does he have guns?

 

[yepimonfire]

Somewhere in Audioholics articles there was a link to this. Knowing what Audioholcs are all about, I figured; since it is linked it should be accurate to a certain level. However, an interpretation might be of some use. People are still debating whether it’s loudness that damages the ears or all sorts of distortions.

The table shows the SPL of garbage disposal, which I don’t have, but a diesel truck 10 meters away wouldn’t bother me for up to 3 or 4 hours. And that is supposed to be 90dB.

I don’t really know what damages the ear, but I can offer two arguments towards it being the distortion and not the loudness itself, although it is possible this holds true up to a certain SPL.

First argument is ‘rumble’ which is supposed to be bad for you but not at all that audible.

The second argument has to do with evolution; all human senses warn him of damaging or potentially harmful exposure and or consequences. Bad smell - spoiled food, bright light - potentially blinding, high heat - burns…

It is quite possible that ‘bad’ sound is more harmful and that it is not simply SPL. Perhaps it’s a combination of the two. However, if you go along this road, personal preferences should be taken into account. So it shouldn’t be what one like, but what is bad for your ears.

There’s also an article here about hearing damage, and a thread with some new research saying it is not the age that diminishes your hearing abilities, but exposure to damaging sound. And these are connected simply because if you work in construction for 30years you’ve been exposed to harmful sound more than someone working in construction for 5years.

Considering all 7 of my speakers are rated at 94dB sensitivity, I can easily achieve 112 dB with a lousy 25 watts according to this http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html, so I doubt it's going to distort at 100w, not to mention Klipsch speakers are well
known for their effortless dynamics even at high volumes.

I'm not really sure why distortion would damage hearing more than undistorted high spl levels.

 

[shadyJ]

Considering all 7 of my speakers are rated at 94dB sensitivity, I can easily achieve 112 dB with a lousy 25 watts according to this http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html, so I doubt it's going to distort at 100w, not to mention Klipsch speakers are well
known for their effortless dynamics even at high volumes.

I'm not really sure why distortion would damage hearing more than undistorted high spl levels.

Klipsch are well known for exaggerating their sensitivity ratings. What they don't state is that the sensitivity measurement is taken at some thing like 1/8 space and only at something like 1 kHz. That is a ridiculous way to gauge sensitivity. Don't believe Klipsch's sensitivity claims unless maybe they are talking about their pro-audio stuff.

With regard to hearing damage, a movie that is mixed loudly and played at reference level can exceed safe noise exposures, so yes, a movie played at THX Reference levels can damage your hearing. It would need to be a long movie and a really noisy one.

 

[killdozzer]

I'm not really sure why distortion would damage hearing more than undistorted high spl levels.

I'm not saying this is definitive. It is not impossible, though. Some sounds can be pleasant at 90dB and some really hurt your ears. I’m saying this ‘hurting’ is your brain telling you to stop. Mechanical parts in your ear have to convey sound to your Eustachian tube and on to your nerve endings. They might have a more difficult job conveying rough and distorted sound. I stress might. But read those articles I linked and come to your own conclusion.


I did say that even if this is true, it probably doesn’t apply to something over 110dB. Ear drum and all of the moving parts are probably in the red zone at that point.


And again, ‘rumble’ should be significant when thinking about low SPL sound that is still damaging. It simply seems that even though high SPL is damaging in it self, there’s far more to it.


P.S.: funny how you’re either a ‘klipschead’ and you hold Klipsch sacred, or you’re not and then you’re almost not even impressed. I never heard anyone simply saying Klipsch is alright, I wouldn’t mind having them, but you can do better.

 

[KenM10759]

I think most Klipsch speakers "alright." There you go.

Their classic series LaScala, Heresy, and Cornwall speakers are fine. And those Cornwall are large speakers which actually are very efficient. The owner of an A/V shop I frequent had them hooked up to a 25w per channel vacuum tube amp. They could easily drive you right out of the room without taxing that Jolida one bit.

In the lower price consumer lines, the newer Reference Premier (RP280-F, RP260-F, etc.) are very smooth. The previous Reference series (R28-F, R26-F, R24-F) were at least fatiguing if not downright painful to my ears for music, not as bad for HT.

 

[yepimonfire]

I think most Klipsch speakers "alright." There you go.

Their classic series LaScala, Heresy, and Cornwall speakers are fine. And those Cornwall are large speakers which actually are very efficient. The owner of an A/V shop I frequent had them hooked up to a 25w per channel vacuum tube amp. They could easily drive you right out of the room without taxing that Jolida one bit.

In the lower price consumer lines, the newer Reference Premier (RP280-F, RP260-F, etc.) are very smooth. The previous Reference series (R28-F, R26-F, R24-F) were at least fatiguing if not downright painful to my ears for music, not as bad for HT.

It's the newer reference series I have, they aren't fatiguing at all, very detailed and accurate. Not sure if the sensitivity ratings are exaggerated or not, but I can tell you that they are significantly louder at the same amount of power than any other speakers I've owned. Before I had a full set of the klipsch I was using a pair of bookshelf speakers for surrounds rated at 86dB, the surrounds were 2 feet closer to my ears and I still had to boost them +6dB in the AVR just to get the same measured spl.

I'm don't consider myself a klipsch head and have avoided them in the past because I spend more time listening to music than watching movies and I hate overly bright speakers, but their new reference series was good enough to convince me to replace my entire system with them and they are probably the best sounding speakers I've owned, and that's good enough for me.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... People are still debating whether it’s loudness that damages the ears or all sorts of distortions.



There’s also an article here about hearing damage, and a thread with some new research saying it is not the age that diminishes your hearing abilities, but exposure to damaging sound. And these are connected simply because if you work in construction for 30years you’ve been exposed to harmful sound more than someone working in construction for 5years.

Yes, but then construction noise would be distortions of some unknown signal causing the damage, not the loudness, right? And all other jobsite activity as well, right, like musicians and conductors. Those instruments must be producing distortion then.

 

[KenM10759]

It's the newer reference series I have, they aren't fatiguing at all, very detailed and accurate. Not sure if the sensitivity ratings are exaggerated or not, but I can tell you that they are significantly louder at the same amount of power than any other speakers I've owned. Before I had a full set of the klipsch I was using a pair of bookshelf speakers for surrounds rated at 86dB, the surrounds were 2 feet closer to my ears and I still had to boost them +6dB in the AVR just to get the same measured spl.

I'm don't consider myself a klipsch head and have avoided them in the past because I spend more time listening to music than watching movies and I hate overly bright speakers, but their new reference series was good enough to convince me to replace my entire system with them and they are probably the best sounding speakers I've owned, and that's good enough for me.

I clearly stated that the newer Reference Premier (RP) series speakers are better than the previous Reference (non-RP) series.

 

[ifsixwasnin9]

What are you listening to? I have to listen to Rock at loud levels. Even Classical sometimes. I like to listen to Classical at the true performance level so a violin sounds like a live violin, etc.

 

[shadyJ]

What are you listening to? I have to listen to Rock at loud levels. Even Classical sometimes. I like to listen to Classical at the true performance level so a violin sounds like a live violin, etc.

You do realize that hearing loss among orchestral musicians is very prevalent?

 

[3db]

You do realize that hearing loss among orchestral musicians is very prevalent?

Yes because of the majority of the instruments playing, not because of their instrument alone.

 

[yepimonfire]

I clearly stated that the newer Reference Premier (RP) series speakers are better than the previous Reference (non-RP) series.

And I was agreeing

 

[shadyJ]

Yes because of the majority of the instruments playing, not because of their instrument alone.

Not entirely true: "Trumpet players and the left ear of first violinists had significantly elevated hearing thresholds compared with other musicians."

 

[mtrycrafts]

... so a violin sounds like a live violin, etc.

So, a violin playing subtle tones live doesn't sound like a violin playing at full loudness?
And, how far is that violin at a concert and how loud is it at the listener?

 

[lovinthehd]

Just hope you have better luck with that loud thing than I did. I'm 60 and tinnitus has started to visit me regularly. Very annoying. I also had to have it loud. Just sayin'....

 

[cel4145]

Just hope you have better luck with that loud thing than I did. I'm 60 and tinnitus has started to visit me regularly. Very annoying. I also had to have it loud. Just sayin'....

Me, too, and I'm a little younger with tinnitus now. I wish I had done a much better job of following the OSHA guidelines on noise exposure.

 

[KenM10759]

Well, it used to be that we didn't know about hearing damage from loud work environments. We just got "hard of hearing" from getting old, which was perhaps 60-65 years at one time, then we died. Now we live to 75, 85, and beyond.

I never even knew there was OSHA guidelines until I'd been working in machine shops for over ten years. I went to work for a bigger company and as part of the new employee training they did a hearing test in their own facility. They told me then that my left ear had a "slight deficiency" in the 12khz and higher frequencies, and educated me about hearing damage being cumulative and permanent. I've chosen to wear hearing protection since. At a minimum foam earplugs but in some places both those and over-ear protection. As I moved to other jobs my personal protective equipment (PPE) went with me and I was often the odd man out wearing it. I wear it riding my motorcycle too, as that can be deceptively loud wind noise.

I don't know if "massive deregulation" coming will diminish what little affect OSHA had on hearing protection, just sad that it never was very good anyhow and it's up to us to recognize when we are putting our ears at risk.

 

[cel4145]

I recently educated my teenage son on the OSHA guidelines. We took my Radio Shack SPL meter in his car, measured a few of his listening volumes, and discussed what is "safe" for extended periods, and what is not. And he's now good about wearing ear plugs during band practice (he is in drumline) and even at popular music concerts. We were just at Snoop Dogg at an indoor arena show this past week, and we both wore our IEMs as earplugs the entire time. I don't say anything, no need to remind him. He's good now at being conscious about protecting his hearing from loud music for extended periods.

Unfortunately, while our culture is warning youth about the dangers of prolonged loud music over a life time, they have no frame of reference for knowing what is too loud and how long without such tests with an SPL meter. There's just the blanket "loud music can damage your hearing' advice, and I'm sure it is going ignored. And yet, many of them are starting out with IEMs at young ages blasting music with portable devices all day long with more loud music exposure than many of us in the older generation ever experienced at that age. I fully expect to see even more people finding they have hearing loss once into middle age than those of us already there and experiencing it.