In-Wall Front Speakers + Projector Screen

[Jasio]

Hello,

In my slow, and tedious process of learning the ins-and-outs of home theater speakers I came across in-wall speakers, particularly the kind that you cut dry wall out to mount (rather than the thin ones you hang) and I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with them.

I am mulling putting in a home theater in a spare room in the basement but the room happens to be very long and quite narrow. I was wondering what folks think about the possibility of in-wall speakers mounted behind an acoustically transparent screen in order to maximize screen size. I realize that good floor standing front channel speakers can be quite tall and I am afraid that they may force me to reduce the size of the screen considerably.

I am aware that there are quite a few companies which manufacture in-wall speakers such as Martin Logan, Sunfire, Niles, Triad, Atlantic Technologies, and Wisdom Audio. I also looked into acoustically transparent screens and am familiar with the higher prices associated with these types of materials.

I have been unable to really get any good answers locally because nobody has a demo room setup in a similar fashion (or even stock transparent screens locally) so I do appreciate any feed-back I could get.

 

[jostenmeat]

Very long. Quite narrow.

Why would any kind of speaker diminish screen size? (I am assuming lengthwise orientation, and you better!) I mean, if it's length you have to work with, what really is the significance of moving the screen towards you a few more feet?

Look towards SeymourAV screens. Get the DIY fabric. There are two PDFs that show different methods of framing it. There, I just saved you thousands of dollars. You owe me a beer if we ever meet. I will hold you to it.

One PDF is for a simpler version. The other is slightly more complex, but still very easy for anyone who is versed with woodworking. The fabric itself is a weave.

If for whatever reason they will be inwall, and without benefit of further research, gun to my head, had to choose now, I'd go with Triad or Atlantic, depending on budget.

Any lack of bass, or midbass, capability of the speakers you choose can be worked around with subs at the front. Even a dedicated sub per channel for the front three if need be. Yeah, you might be telling yourself that you can just get larger speakers to begin with, if this the only other option, and yes, that may well be true (depending on how small, and or how much output you might need).

 

[Paradise]

Here is a pretty serious inwall for a dedicated theater:

http://www.speakercraft.com/#Products:402:AIM Cinema Five

They also offer 2 models below this one, in the same family.

 

[AVRat]

If the length allows, you could also consider a false screen wall with in-room speakers placed behind. What are the dimensions of the room and an anticipated layout? How much are you looking to spend for speakers/sub?

 

[Jasio]

If the length allows, you could also consider a false screen wall with in-room speakers placed behind. What are the dimensions of the room and an anticipated layout? How much are you looking to spend for speakers/sub?

The full room is 11.5' x 30' x 8' - although I would most likely split it into two rooms 11.5' x 18' (or so) for the home theater + use the rest as a storage room. This would give me the ability to acoustically treat the back wall without any issues (as I would be putting one up) and it gives me the ability to mount the AV rack at the back of room and have it vent out into the storage room. The room is in the basement and the front and right walls are 2x6's with insulation and a concrete wall behind that. The left wall is just 2x6 with insulation between the adjacent room.

I figured it might be worth considering putting up the largest possible screen and just using acoustically transparent material - as room depth isn't an issue.

As for budget? I'm not sure. But I would estimate that the total budget for speakers + AV equipment (not including room treatments, projector, or screen) should not exceed $10,000. I was also told to stick to a 5.1 setup for a room of this size.

 

[walter duque]

All time favorite in wall system.
http://www.cinepro.com/AFM-IWS-LitSpecsPage1-2_082708z.pdf

 

[AVRat]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1179128

That room is somewhat similar in size to yours and as you can see from the reading, he spared no expense for the audio.

 

[Jasio]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1179128

That room is somewhat similar in size to yours and as you can see from the reading, he spared no expense for the audio.

Fascinating... a really good read! The room is a bit cramped, but I would ideally push all the AV equipment/amp to the back wall - since I am actually putting up said wall I can free up some save by having the equipment flush with the fall and vent out into the other room. But yes - no expense was spared in this setup and because the dimensions are so similar I will definitely use this as a starting point.

Thanks!

All time favorite in wall system.
http://www.cinepro.com/AFM-IWS-LitSp...-2_082708z.pdf

Yes, impressive - I really like the white lace around the speakers... erm... what? *bookmarks*

 

[AVRat]

The one issue I have with all 3 speakers behind a screen is that the L/Rs aren’t generally far enough apart. The general rule of thumbs is for the horizontal viewing angle to be about 32 – 40 degrees while the horizontal listening angle is about 45 - 60 degrees. For your room you’ll want the speakers about as wide apart as you can get them as in the linked post. With in-walls behind the screen, you’d need a screen that takes up most of the width of the wall and in a 16:9 AR it would be about 72” high. If you decide on in-room speakers you could push the screen size to 114” dia., which I think is an appropriate size. What size screen did you have in mind? And were you planning multi-tier seating?

For subs up North:
http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/pb12plus-powered-box-sub-12-plus-124-woofer-p-23.html?zenid=efd699f284ce755eaa456220ba8fd8f2
http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/box-subwoofers-ultra-series-c-1_7.html
http://www.funkywaves.net/catalog.cfm?item=fw_15_3

For regular screen:
http://www.carada.com/DLP-Screen-Criterion-Projection-Screens-1-78.aspx

 

[AVRat]

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52649

Here's another member's setup, similar width 3' longer, that uses in-walls behind a 110" wide, 2.37 AR, DIY AT screen.

 

[Jasio]

The one issue I have with all 3 speakers behind a screen is that the L/Rs aren’t generally far enough apart. The general rule of thumbs is for the horizontal viewing angle to be about 32 – 40 degrees while the horizontal listening angle is about 45 - 60 degrees. For your room you’ll want the speakers about as wide apart as you can get them as in the linked post. With in-walls behind the screen, you’d need a screen that takes up most of the width of the wall and in a 16:9 AR it would be about 72” high. If you decide on in-room speakers you could push the screen size to 114” dia., which I think is an appropriate size. What size screen did you have in mind? And were you planning multi-tier seating?

For subs up North:
http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/pb12plus-powered-box-sub-12-plus-124-woofer-p-23.html?zenid=efd699f284ce755eaa456220ba8fd8f2
http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/box-subwoofers-ultra-series-c-1_7.html
http://www.funkywaves.net/catalog.cfm?item=fw_15_3

For regular screen:
http://www.carada.com/DLP-Screen-Criterion-Projection-Screens-1-78.aspx

Yes - this is an interesting point (re: L/R location). My assumption was *if* I could stretch the screen across the entire wall (all 11.5' across or nearly) the in-wall speakers would be far apart to avoid issues with viewing angle. I really would like to push the screen size as far as reason could justify.

I haven't heard of Sonicboom Audio - I was under the impression that the best "value + performance" usually came from Velodyne. Like the SC-600 in-wall woofer, or the DD series (12 and 14). But correct me if I am mistaken. As far as power is concerned; I have a dedicated 15amp circuit for that room and I brought in an additional 30amp circuit (dedicated) from the box down into the basement; not sure if that would have much bearing on my choice of equipment.

I do like the idea of multi-tier seating, 2 rows (3 + 3) with the second row being raised. My concern about the second row is construction. The house has radiant/in-floor heating which means there are fairly thin hoses in the floor run in a matrix/cross configuration and sunken under a thin layer of concrete. This makes mounting the floor, while avoiding squeaking fairly difficult. Eitherway, it is something that is still on the table.

On a final note: 5.1 or 7.1? I had a local "home theater guy" look at the room and stated that 7.1 is overkill due to room dimensions. I am not 100% convinced of this because power isn't everything; I was under the impression that 7.1 simply offers a more three dimensional sound stage.

 

[jostenmeat]

Yes - this is an interesting point (re: L/R location). My assumption was *if* I could stretch the screen across the entire wall (all 11.5' across or nearly) the in-wall speakers would be far apart to avoid issues with viewing angle. I really would like to push the screen size as far as reason could justify.

Your assumption is a good one. As long as "that" big is indeed what works best. Just to make a counterpoint to Rat's post, there are plenty who leave the L/R outside of the screen, and still use the AT for best design/orientation/placement of center speaker.

I haven't heard of Sonicboom Audio - I was under the impression that the best "value + performance" usually came from Velodyne. Like the SC-600 in-wall woofer, or the DD series (12 and 14). But correct me if I am mistaken. As far as power is concerned; I have a dedicated 15amp circuit for that room and I brought in an additional 30amp circuit (dedicated) from the box down into the basement; not sure if that would have much bearing on my choice of equipment

The best value + performance is with DIY. Look up the Tuba build that Matt34 did. Since it is extremely efficient, even the 15 amp circuit is way more than enough. It is huge. Few hundred dollars for the build, set aside a little more budget for amp, and I wouldn't be surprised if it outperformed quad DD18s as least as far as output. For something more conventionally sized, look at the Kappa Perfect build.

For HT, I'd also choose SVS over Velodyne. I've never owned either, nor built a sub.

I do like the idea of multi-tier seating, 2 rows (3 + 3) with the second row being raised. My concern about the second row is construction. The house has radiant/in-floor heating which means there are fairly thin hoses in the floor run in a matrix/cross configuration and sunken under a thin layer of concrete. This makes mounting the floor, while avoiding squeaking fairly difficult. Eitherway, it is something that is still on the table.

Don't know what to say, but here is one AH article.
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/do-it-yourself-diy-topics/multifunction-theater-seat-riser

Use the below to find the UTTER BARE MINIMUM of riser height. Please note that sometimes you will want to recline in the back row, but that someone in the front likes to sit bolt upright, and also happens to have a spiky hair-do. In fact, I would use reclined rear height of eyes, and upright for front, to figure the numbers.
http://www.theater-calc.com/

On a final note: 5.1 or 7.1? I had a local "home theater guy" look at the room and stated that 7.1 is overkill due to room dimensions. I am not 100% convinced of this because power isn't everything; I was under the impression that 7.1 simply offers a more three dimensional sound stage.

You'll get a lot of opinions. If you have length, then you have space for 7.1. IIRC, my ceiling is the same height as yours, and when I change out processor, I am adding DSX heights for 9.1. If I had the width, I'd do those too, but I don't.


Well, you never acknowledged my last excellent post/advice for you, so I won't keep my fingers crossed here. Good luck.

 

[Jasio]

Well, you never acknowledged my last excellent post/advice for you, so I won't keep my fingers crossed here. Good luck.

If you're referring to the thread about CD players - I simply considered the matter pretty much summed up in your reply and did not need to pursue the issue any further - the list gave me something that occupied several weeks as I tracked down all the CD players to listen to them. But if you're curious - I settled on the Marantz CC4003 5 disc changer which is $499 retail and I picked up "refurbed" by Marantz for $300 and I am very happy with it so far.

I don't disregard advice - but it can be difficult to follow-up every bit of valuable information I get right away. Don't misinterpret it as me ignoring you.

 

[jostenmeat]

If you're referring to the thread about CD players -

No, I wasn't, and didn't recall that I ever posted in any other thread for you, besides this one. I was referring to the very first response you got here.

 

[AVRat]

No, I wasn't, and didn't recall that I ever posted in any other thread for you, besides this one. I was referring to the very first response you got here.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=676777&postcount=6

 

[AVRat]

Yes - this is an interesting point (re: L/R location). My assumption was *if* I could stretch the screen across the entire wall (all 11.5' across or nearly) the in-wall speakers would be far apart to avoid issues with viewing angle. I really would like to push the screen size as far as reason could justify.

I’m not trying to discount your desire to cover the width of the wall with screen, but I think once you scale the image down to a desirable viewing size you’ll have leftover screen that will have light bleed-over that will compromise the picture quality.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/projector_screen_basics/#
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/Verticalviewing.html

With 2 rows of seating and assuming that your viewing/listening positions are about 10’/15’ from the front wall, you’ll need to find a happy median screen size so that it’s not too big for front row viewers or too small for rear row viewers. A 95” wide screen would provide 43°/30° viewing angles and is a size I think most people would be very happy with. This would leave ample room on either side for in-walls L/R beyond the borders of the screen, as Josten pointed out and I hadn’t mentioned.

http://www.seymourav.com/store.asp

I haven't heard of Sonicboom Audio - I was under the impression that the best "value + performance" usually came from Velodyne. Like the SC-600 in-wall woofer, or the DD series (12 and 14)

Yes, up until about a decade or so ago, Velodyne was a leader in the sub market, but since then there has been more innovation and many smaller manufacturers have jumped into the market producing phenomenal products: SVS, HSU, Epik, Elemental Designs, Axiom, JL Audio, Rhymik Audio to name a few. Sonicboom Audio is SV Sound’s, which is a major player in the internet direct sub/speaker market, Canadian distributor.

http://www.svsound.com

I do like the idea of multi-tier seating, 2 rows (3 + 3) with the second row being raised. My concern about the second row is construction. The house has radiant/in-floor heating which means there are fairly thin hoses in the floor run in a matrix/cross configuration and sunken under a thin layer of concrete. This makes mounting the floor, while avoiding squeaking fairly difficult. Eitherway, it is something that is still on the table.

Josten’s links to the riser info are good ones and as you may see it doesn’t interfere with the radiant flooring.

On a final note: 5.1 or 7.1? I had a local "home theater guy" look at the room and stated that 7.1 is overkill due to room dimensions. I am not 100% convinced of this because power isn't everything; I was under the impression that 7.1 simply offers a more three dimensional sound stage.

Hey, if you want 7.1 go for it. Rears would be placed about 6’ apart.

 

[mperfct]

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52649

Here's another member's setup, similar width 3' longer, that uses in-walls behind a 110" wide, 2.37 AR, DIY AT screen.

Ya, that guy is a freakin' genius. And he makes a mean souffle.

 

[AVRat]

Ya, that guy is a freakin' genius. And he makes a mean souffle.

Yeah, with no words of wisdom!

 

[mperfct]

Yeah, with no words of wisdom!

Fair enough!

Jasio, I looked at Triads, AT, and a slew of other in-wall speakers and I have been nothing but amazed at my RBH's. I'd highly recommend them, but of course your ears are different than mine. I treated my whole front wall plus "bass" trapping in all the corners, and in the soffits as well. I don't have any thing covering front reflections, and somehow, it doesn't seem to make any difference. Probably because the ear to speaker distance is very close to the ear-wall-speaker distance. Just food for thought.

I used SeymourAV XD material and think it's fantastic. I highly recommend them.

Let me know if you have any other questions, and check out my build thread at AVS (under bmwracer3). Good luck!

Chris

 

[AVRat]

I’m not trying to discount your desire to cover the width of the wall with screen, but I think once you scale the image down to a desirable viewing size you’ll have leftover screen that will have light bleed-over that will compromise the picture quality.

I should have qualified this statement to say that it is not a major detriment and many people with 2.35 CIH setups don’t feel the need to mask that area. So, if you still decide on a large width screen the Seymour Fixed 2.35 F130 is a good option.