In Wall/Ceiling Speakers for 400 sq. ft. home theater Size Recommendation (6.5" vs 8") - Focal

[Fried Chicken]

I have a 400 sq. foot home theater, I will definitely be installing four in-ceiling speakers and am additionally considering in-wall speakers.

I currently have a 7.2 setup with RTi10 front towers, RtiA3 surrounds and polk something else rear surrounds (CSi A6 center).
I'm going to have someone put blow-in insulation into the attic, before then I have to take care of *any and all* attic work, present and future.

I'm going to install Focal speakers, their in ceiling offering are the 100 ICW 6 and the 100 ICW 8

With their in-wall speakers being the 100 IW 6.

Focal claims the ICW series can be used both in-ceiling and in-wall. They do not offer an 8" in-wall specific speaker. Their IW6 has a rotatable tweeter (could be usefuful for the surround and rear surround).

What's the recommendation here? How would these compare to the RTi A3 for bass performance?

Here's a breakdown of the specs from crutchfield:
ICW6:

• recommended amplifier power: 25-100 watts
• frequency response: 62-23,000 Hz
• sensitivity: 89 dB
• impedance: 8 ohms

ICW8:

• recommended amplifier power: 25-150 watts
• frequency response: 53-23,000 Hz
• sensitivity: 90 dB
• impedance: 8 ohms

IW6:

• recommended amplifier power: 25-120 watts
• frequency response: 60-23,000 Hz
• sensitivity: 89 dB
• impedance: 8 ohms

Amplifier power is another considerion (Thinking RX-A3040 driving 9-channels with the towers driven by an M65)

 

[TLS Guy]

I have a 400 sq. foot home theater, I will definitely be installing four in-ceiling speakers and am additionally considering in-wall speakers.

I currently have a 7.2 setup with RTi10 front towers, RtiA3 surrounds and polk something else rear surrounds (CSi A6 center).
I'm going to have someone put blow-in insulation into the attic, before then I have to take care of *any and all* attic work, present and future.

I'm going to install Focal speakers, their in ceiling offering are the 100 ICW 6 and the 100 ICW 8

With their in-wall speakers being the 100 IW 6.

Focal claims the ICW series can be used both in-ceiling and in-wall. They do not offer an 8" in-wall specific speaker. Their IW6 has a rotatable tweeter (could be usefuful for the surround and rear surround).

What's the recommendation here? How would these compare to the RTi A3 for bass performance?

Here's a breakdown of the specs from crutchfield:
ICW6:

• recommended amplifier power: 25-100 watts
• frequency response: 62-23,000 Hz
• sensitivity: 89 dB
• impedance: 8 ohms

ICW8:

• recommended amplifier power: 25-150 watts
• frequency response: 53-23,000 Hz
• sensitivity: 90 dB
• impedance: 8 ohms

IW6:

• recommended amplifier power: 25-120 watts
• frequency response: 60-23,000 Hz
• sensitivity: 89 dB
• impedance: 8 ohms

Amplifier power is another considerion (Thinking RX-A3040 driving 9-channels with the towers driven by an M65)

That is a big room, and over 2000 Cu.ft. if it has 8' or 9' ceilings.

I personally do not think your system is nearly powerful enough for that space. Single 6" or 8" drivers will just not cut it. A receiver will also be marginal in that space.

That is a very similar square footage to what I have. So your room is about 15' X 27' or so.

Mine is 17' X 30' with 9' ceiling. That takes quite a bit of driving.

The ceiling speakers are fine, but I would use a back box. I use Mark Audio full range drivers in 0.25 cu. ft. back boxes. They are perfect for Atmos speakers, I use four of them. They are much cheaper than buying so called ceiling speakers, which I don't favor at all.

I would try to steer you away from in walls. I do have an in wall system in our great room, but it is a high powered design of my own and powered with 1000 watts. The speakers are enclosed. It is a really good in wall system, but I would not use it in my AV room.

I am totally opposed to placing unloaded (unboxed) speakers in a wall space. That is not high fidelity in any way shape or form.

I would use free standing speakers if you can. I do use a through wall center in my room, and the rears are included in the shelf design with space for vinyl, CDs and digital discs.

I realize I can do things, others can't, but shelving on the back wall is a really good idea as it breaks up and pretty much eliminates "slap echo" without ugly room treatments.

So you cold use bookshelf speakers actually on a shelf. You could use in walls for surrounds if they are good quality and properly loaded. These days the mix engineers are getting bolder and putting more power on surrounds and backs.

For the front three I would use free standing speakers for sure.

For that space, an Atmos theater really requires a 7.2.4 speaker layout to Dolby specs. You could use 7.1.4 but I would encourage two good subs.

I think you should use external amplification for the front three.

These new Atmos production pack quite a "wallop" from UHD Atmos discs I've noted.

But even if it is mainly a music system, or music with a picture, like my system is, these sources now have huge dynamic range, like the BPO Digital Concert Hall in its high res. and Atmos streams.

Make sure you do not run any in wall cable that is not in conduit. Do NOT break that rule under any circumstances.

Planning, designing and building a good AV room is not a trivial affair. It takes detailed planning design and execution.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Appreciate it. I've already run speaker wire for all the rear speakers through the well, to a junction box, to plugs on the output. I've also already run speaker wire for four ceiling atmos speakers for a 7.2.4 layout. The fronts are towers, the center is on a TV stand.

What sort of 0.25 cu. ft. back boxes are you using?

 

[TLS Guy]

Appreciate it. I've already run speaker wire for all the rear speakers through the well, to a junction box, to plugs on the output. I've also already run speaker wire for four ceiling atmos speakers for a 7.2.4 layout. The fronts are towers, the center is on a TV stand.

What sort of 0.25 cu. ft. back boxes are you using?

They are just 0.25 cu.ft. 3/4" MDF sealed boxes filled with Polyfill.

The drivers.

The finished results.

Front two ceiling speakers.

Rear two ceiling speakers.

Very simple and effective.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Does MDF meet fireproofing codes?

 

[TLS Guy]

Does MDF meet fireproofing codes?

Good question. I never had an issue. Of course fire codes are local, but I think we have some of the strictest codes here in Eagan Minnesota.

The inspectors, fire and building, took a particular interest in what I was doing, and scrutinized it intensively. They never had an issue with those ceiling enclosures. The floors are a version of particle board and the roof trusses are flammable. In any event those boxes are covered by 14" of blown insulation. This was never brought up as an issue and I hid nothing from the inspectors.

What they were very concerned about, was breaching the fire wall. They test this by pressurizing the wall space. They then look at the decay of the pressure. They had most concern about my through wall center speaker. They were concerned about it. So I went to great lengths to make sure it fitted into a compartment and was obsessionally sealed. Anyhow the home passed the pressure test with flying colors on the first attempt.

On my in wall system the firewall is behind that installation. It is installed in a false wall.

The other point I would make is that the sound treatment of this room is in the walls and floor and part of the design of the room. This treatment would also slow fire spread. I think the late Buckminster Fuller would have felt that my design would fulfill his criterion for being what he termed a "tensegrity" structure. By this he meant a strong totally encompassing design concept. So I did make every attempt to make this a unified design with all aspects complimenting and reinforcing the others.

Anyhow all the inspectors from various disciplines were satisfied, and that is all I can tell you.

Lastly I would say boxing the speakers is superior to having unboxed speakers from a fire prevention point of view. I say that as I think those boxed speakers would slow upward spread of fire versus unboxed speakers.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Is it literally as simple as placing the speaker inside a box, and/or placing a box around the speaker in the attic/ceiling? Build an MDF box, glue it down on top of the speaker?

 

[TLS Guy]

Is it literally as simple as placing the speaker inside a box, and/or placing a box around the speaker in the attic/ceiling? Build an MDF box, glue it down on top of the speaker?

Yes, it is that simple. 0.25 cu.ft, is the optimal box volume for that speaker in a sealed enclosure. You do need to stuff the box with Polyfill, but not compress it. That gives you an F3 of 91 Hz by my box model and confirmed. I cross them at 120Hz, which is fine for ceiling Atmos speakers.

They make really good Atmos speakers and are just perfect for that application. You won't do better than employing that design.

You don't glue the speaker in though. You build the box, and fasten the driver with nuts and bolts. Then screw the baffle to the box. Then you can mount the grill to cover the whole speaker, just like the photographs.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Yes, it is that simple. 0.25 cu.ft, is the optimal box volume for that speaker in a sealed enclosure. You do need to stuff the box with Polyfill, but not compress it. That gives you an F3 of 91 Hz by my box model and confirmed. I cross them at 120Hz, which is fine for ceiling Atmos speakers.

They make really good Atmos speakers and are just perfect for that application. You won't do better than employing that design.

You don't glue the speaker in though. You build the box, and fasten the driver with nuts and bolts. Then screw the baffle to the box. Then you can mount the grill to cover the whole speaker, just like the photographs.

I was dead set on the Focal's, but I got the quote and unfortunately it's more than I'm willing to spend.
This is rather frustrating as now I have to chase an appropriate sepaker to install.

I'm looking at the Klipsch CDT-5800-C II.

Regarding the box, I can't fully envision what you're saying, In my mind I'd build a box out of the MDF with a hole for the speaker to slip into. Then I'd cut through the drywall of the roof and install the speaker from the bottom using the provided hardware.

 

[TLS Guy]

I was dead set on the Focal's, but I got the quote and unfortunately it's more than I'm willing to spend.
This is rather frustrating as now I have to chase an appropriate sepaker to install.

I'm looking at the Klipsch CDT-5800-C II.

Regarding the box, I can't fully envision what you're saying, In my mind I'd build a box out of the MDF with a hole for the speaker to slip into. Then I'd cut through the drywall of the roof and install the speaker from the bottom using the provided hardware.

Why on Earth are you searching for far worse speakers that cost a lot more.

These Mark Audio CHN 110 speakers will save you are lot of money and are far better than the Focal or the Klipsch. The power handling is the same as those Klipsch, but there is no crossover so the sound output will be higher.

Those Mark Audio speakers are the direct descendants of the legendary Jordan Watts module. I was heavily involved in its development back 60 years ago, and actually designed the MK III. Ted Jordan bequeathed his patents to the designers of those Mark Audio drivers before his death.

I can tell you that for a ceiling Atmos speaker you will not get better no matter how much you spend. I have specked you a lower 3db. point that you can rely on. Klipsch can't and won't.

I fixed the back boxed to roof trusses. The installation was really easy and mechanically really sound.

I guarantee that I have never been involved in the designing of junk.

 

[Fried Chicken]

I've reached three important conclusions:
1. I want to Timbre match with the rest of my system (Polk Audio)
2. Whatever I install will need angling capabilities.
3. 6.5" Drivers are plenty

I was then dead set on the VT60 from Polk Audio (meets requirement 1, and is relatively inexpensive), but now I found out that I can't angle them appropriately. I'm not sure if Polk Audio even offers a speaker with this functionality.

TLS, your words have inspired me to build a backbox for the speakers and install it in the attic. Also given that I'm building an enclosure, I may simply get a driver, however I want it to be timbre matched with the other polk audio speakers I have.

 

[TLS Guy]

I've reached three important conclusions:
1. I want to Timbre match with the rest of my system (Polk Audio)
2. Whatever I install will need angling capabilities.
3. 6.5" Drivers are plenty

I was then dead set on the VT60 from Polk Audio (meets requirement 1, and is relatively inexpensive), but now I found out that I can't angle them appropriately. I'm not sure if Polk Audio even offers a speaker with this functionality.

TLS, your words have inspired me to build a backbox for the speakers and install it in the attic. Also given that I'm building an enclosure, I may simply get a driver, however I want it to be timbre matched with the other polk audio speakers I have.

Timbre matching is just making sure that all speakers are equally lousy in pretty much the same way. You DO NOT have to timbre match good speakers, they match natively.

I use different drivers in my center from my mains, and yet the front stage is seamless, same goes for the surrounds, rear backs and ceiling speakers.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Timbre matching is just making sure that all speakers are equally lousy in pretty much the same way. You DO NOT have to timbre match good speakers, they match natively.

I mean they probably just more closely align to the same goal?

I'm not in the realm of super good speaker, so I have to timbre match. I'm not designing and building an enclosure that will allow me to alter the angle of the speakers. That's what the big boys are for.

 

[Movie2099]

I mean they probably just more closely align to the same goal?

I'm not in the realm of super good speaker, so I have to timbre match. I'm not designing and building an enclosure that will allow me to alter the angle of the speakers. That's what the big boys are for.

What is your budget for speakers?

 

[Fried Chicken]

What is your budget for speakers?

$600 to $800 for four.

 

[TLS Guy]

$600 to $800 for four.

Which four?

Timbre matching can go both ways, as it is possible you can be lucky and have some speakers correct the others. Having said that, the front three have to be coherent, and in my view not identical in dispersion pattern. The center needs to cover the listening area evenly and if possible not more. One thing you don't want is a horizontal MTM.

My mains and center are different designs with intent, but designed to produce a really good front stage.

The mix engineers of movies are getting bolder of late and putting more power on the surrounds backs and ceiling speakers.

 

[Kingnoob]

I was dead set on the Focal's, but I got the quote and unfortunately it's more than I'm willing to spend.
This is rather frustrating as now I have to chase an appropriate sepaker to install.

I'm looking at the Klipsch CDT-5800-C II.

Regarding the box, I can't fully envision what you're saying, In my mind I'd build a box out of the MDF with a hole for the speaker to slip into. Then I'd cut through the drywall of the roof and install the speaker from the bottom using the provided hardware.

Rsl is another affordable brand , focal are expensive ehh .

 

[Fried Chicken]

Which four?

Timbre matching can go both ways

Cheeky!

I actually just got a pair of Polk Audio RTi A9's for the fronts (as an upgrade to my RTI10's), CSi A6 center, RTi A3 surround, older Polk Audio rear surround. I will timbre match with Polk Audio RTi.