In response to jostenmeat

avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
I have a question, or maybe a couple, regarding speaker design, particularly the x-over. So, you take some excellently linear drivers and x-over, and start tailoring the cabinet. Are there thresholds of cabinet volume where the x-over must be redesigned? IOW, is there a limit to what you can do before any such consideration comes into effect? I make the assumption that the answer is "No", just by looking at your work.
Please note, the picture I posted is of a custom build, not a modification. As far as how much volume of the cabinet can be used this depends on the specific drivers within the cabinet. Before any modification is done [irregardless of brand/speaker] it is important to measure the driver and model how it will behave in an environment with less volume. Typically this will result in an attenuated lower frequency response, but rarely it can drastically change driver behavior such that modification would not be an ideal decision. Because low frequency response is the only altered area there is no need to modify the stock crossover in typical modifications.

Or is it that the x-over dealing with higher frequencies (between tweet/mid) are rather immune to cabinet volume, and that perhaps the x-over between mid and bass drivers would more likely need to be re-desgined/configured? (Such as with an outboard unit you must be using). I'm sure there must be another can of worms when considering room interaction...
The DCX2496 is used as an equalizer as well as a crossover such that stereo subwoofers can be perfectly integrated with the modified speakers allowing for maximum fidelity.

I presume that at this price range ($125-350) that only very minimal research on cabinet performance/suitability has been done, if any at all. Which leads me to ask:

for those very large companies that have a lot of funds for R&D, such as B&W for instance, how much will tweaks in cabinet volume affect the design of their x-overs? I know this might appear as a loaded question, for if the answer was, "yes, a great deal", that would be contrary to my assumption made above. I guess my question is that if funds were "unlimited", would there be any benefit without any bang-for-buck consideration as to the very specifc effect the cabinet might have on x-over performance itself?
If money is not an option there are commercial speakers that do have inert cabinets and are highly linear. A monopolar example of this is the B&W 802D.

I believe the rest of your question has been answered in my previous statements.

A parting shot/opinion regarding any "arguments" above. Its been said by members, who are perhaps the most familiar with meaurements, that the time it takes to understand the phalanx of such measurements and accurately judge its performance is formidable. IOW, might as well just use our ears... unless you want to get reeeaaaaallllyy deep into such territory. Would you agree, avaserfi, or is that just another loaded question? I assume it is. :p
There is a large variety of issues with simply using ones ears to subjectively assess a loudspeaker: bias and loudspeaker-room interaction are the two most notable.

I guess, in slight defense of those who use fallible and subjective ears, I have seen some number-lovers strongly opining on speaker performance based on measurements, just to be immediately corrected by a more versed number-lover. (Reminds me of an Annie Hall scene). I remember a sig I've seen, a quote by Andrew Lang, "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts-- for support rather than illumination".
The real issue pointed out in this quote is ability or perhaps lack thereof. The drunk man is not able to stand under his own power just as one with insufficient knowledge of perceptual research is not able to properly correlate loudspeaker measurement to human perception.

I definitely wouldn't be referring to you, Andrew, but I know a lot of people who have done that once or twice. It's hard not to, to be honest... :eek:
I have no issue with this
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
[irregardless...
You said my favorite word. :p kidding aside...

I believe the rest of your question has been answered in my previous statements.
From which I gather you are implying that cabinet volume has zero effect on x-over design, until such volume affects driver performance. At which point, you still do not even consider x-over redesign because it would be a poor decision to modify anyhow.


There is a large variety of issues with simply using ones ears to subjectively assess a loudspeaker: bias and loudspeaker-room interaction are the two most notable.
True that. I most strongly agree with the latter point. Im not denying the first, I just have seen extremely varying performances from different rooms. Both at home, and in stores.


The real issue pointed out in this quote is ability or perhaps lack thereof. The drunk man is not able to stand under his own power just as one with insufficient knowledge of perceptual research is not able to properly correlate loudspeaker measurement to human perception.
You are preaching to the choir. The point I wanted to bring up was how much time, knowledge, and smarts it might take to get past the point of "insufficient knowledge". The main reason I brought this up was to see if you had an opinion or reaction in regards to the ease, or lack therof, in acheiving this.


Thanks again for responding, and sharing your thoughts. Appreciated.
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
You said my favorite word. :p kidding aside...
I was in a rush. Old habit from when I was younger...oops :)

From which I gather you are implying that cabinet volume has zero effect on x-over design, until such volume affects driver performance. At which point, you still do not even consider x-over redesign because it would be a poor decision to modify anyhow.
A very simplified version but sure. If the modification would result in such extreme change in performance it would probably be a good idea to find a different speaker to modify.

You are preaching to the choir. The point I wanted to bring up was how much time, knowledge, and smarts it might take to get past the point of "insufficient knowledge". The main reason I brought this up was to see if you had an opinion or reaction in regards to the ease, or lack therof, in acheiving this.
More than anything else it requires interest and a willingness to invest the appropriate amount of time [which will differ from person to person]. I have been reading and rereading journal articles and books nonstop since I have decided to investigate the subject.
 
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