If I don't bi-wire, which cables should I use?

[slmcdonald7]

Hi all,

The longest 10 days of my life are over, and the Paradigm Monitor 11's I ordered are finally here!

I had planned on bi-wiring them, but after reading post after post from knowledgeable people in this forum discouraging bi-wiring (even on the Denon 3805, which would give me 240 watts, but whatever...), I now am having second thoughts.

So, assuming I don't bi-wire them, what type of cables would you ('you' being anyone who wants to respond) recommend that I use? My knowledge on speaker cables is almost non-existent, so any help, however basic, is welcomed.

If my general call for info isn't enough to spur you into responding, here are two very specific questions:

1) Would you recommend bi-wiring the speakers since I am using a Denon 3805 (which would double my power), or not?

2) If I do (or don't) bi-wire them, what type of cables / wires would you suggest that I purchase?

Thanks again all,
Stephen

 

[Rÿche 1]

There's nothing wrong with bi-wiring. If you want to try it, go ahead. It's doubtful you'll hear any difference, though. From what i've read, bi-amping with an active crossover (disabling your internal crossovers) is the way to go. Otherwise, just run a good quality single cable to your speakers.

 

[House de Kris]

Bi-wiring will not double your power.

 

[Rob Babcock]

The Denon 3805 is able to biamp your speakers. Biamping is connecting one amp to the tweeters and a different amp to the woofers. Biwiring is merely using separate cables to feed the woofs & tweets off the same amplifier tap. Biamping will effectively deliver more power to the speakers, while biwiring will not. The former can make a noticeable difference in sound while the latter won't be much different.

 

[slmcdonald7]

Hmmmm....

Thanks Rob,

I had my terminology confused. I have been wondering this whole time why everyone was disparaging bi-wiring but recommending bi-amping. Thanks for the clarification.

Ok, so let me rephrase my question. Should I bi-amp my speakers? If so, what cables should I use? If not, what cables should I use?

Thanks again,
Stephen

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

12 ga. zipcord from any reputable source, unless looks matter and you want to spend a bit extra for "audio jewelry". In which case, the Speaker Cable Faceoff article here should answer your question and keep you from getting ripped off. Bear in mind that the small differences in measured performance among good cables reported therein are unlikely to have any audible impact.

The real "magic" of biamping is only realized when you eliminate the passive crossover and use an active crossover. There's an Audioholics article on that, too. Worth reading! But if it's more power you seek (hey, who doesn't, whether we need it or not?), then by all means try the biamp feature on the Denon. Can't hurt and it doesn't cost more than another set of wires.

From all I've heard you've made an excellent speaker choice, you lucky devil. That's 90% of the game right there. Enjoy!

 

[Unregistered]

make new jumpers if anything

 

[spenny]

so, if i have a system bi-amped with two 50W intergrated amps, would that give me 100W, slightly less or still only 50W?

 

[mtrycrafts]

There's nothing wrong with bi-wiring. If you want to try it, go ahead. It's doubtful you'll hear any difference, though. From what i've read, bi-amping with an active crossover (disabling your internal crossovers) is the way to go. Otherwise, just run a good quality single cable to your speakers.

Very interesting post. My sentiments exactely as well, except a little more forcefull on the non audibility of buywiring
He would have a difficult time in active biamping though, especially on a brand new speakers, getting in and bypassing the crossover; warranty issues maybe?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Bear in mind that the small differences in measured performance among good cables reported therein are unlikely to have any audible impact.


To date, no audible differences have been demonstrated between comparable cables, 24ga is not, when human bias has been controlled for, ala DBT listening

The real "magic" of biamping is only realized when you eliminate the passive crossover and use an active crossover.



YES! This should be emphasized more

There's an Audioholics article on that, too. Worth reading!

I knew I jouned the right board


But if it's more power you seek (hey, who doesn't, whether we need it or not?), then by all means try the biamp feature on the Denon. Can't hurt and it doesn't cost more than another set of wires.

With this Denon, caution must be emphasized over and over about that strap at the speaker or puff

 

[mtrycrafts]

so, if i have a system bi-amped with two 50W intergrated amps, would that give me 100W, slightly less or still only 50W?

Well, you have also changed the speaker load to the amp. So, this also needs to be examined. The amp may not be upt to it?

 

[mtrycrafts]

make new jumpers if anything

Not following you here. You mean replace the jumper at the speaker terminal? If so, why, what benefit will that have on replacing a 1" long, thick metal plate?

 

[spenny]

Well, you have also changed the speaker load to the amp. So, this also needs to be examined. The amp may not be upt to it?

think we might have our wires crossed here!
is there a formulae or anything for how much power a bi-amped system outputs? i can't see the sum-total being the combined power of both amps without some form of loss/resistance.

any ideas anyone?

 

[nova]

Well, from what I understand there will be little difference in most situations. If the Denon puts out 120 wpc normally, it will put out 120 wpc when it is bi-amped! You cannot "combine the output of both amps". In a very simplified explaination you get 120w to the tweet/mids, and you get 120w to the bass driver. "NOT COMBINED" you are still only getting 120w not 240w. Now where the advantage comes in is you are sending a full 120w to the bass driver, it does not have to share with the tweets/mids anymore. So for example (pulling numbers out of the air) your bass driver may take 90% of the available 120w leaving only 10% of the power for the tweets/mids. Now that it is bi-amped the tweets/mids have their own 120w to draw from (even though they may only need, say,... 12% of that 120w).
That is the advantage of bi-amping with the passive crossovers,... it also does not take into account the draw on the power supply or any other variables.
I hope this helps,...

 

[Paul F]

With this Denon, caution must be emphasized over and over about that strap at the speaker or puff

I missed this. Could you elaborate please?

 

[Rob Babcock]

Biwirable speakers have two sets of terminal on the back- on set feeds the tweeters & one set feeds the woofs. In order to run the speakers from one set of cables, the manufacturer usually includes a "grounding strap" that connects the two red posts and the two black posts. If you hook separate amps up to the posts without removing the straps you'll short out your amp (or at least blow a fuse). Be very careful not to forget to remove this strip!

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well, from what I understand there will be little difference in most situations. If the Denon puts out 120 wpc normally, it will put out 120 wpc when it is bi-amped! You cannot "combine the output of both amps". In a very simplified explaination you get 120w to the tweet/mids, and you get 120w to the bass driver. "NOT COMBINED" you are still only getting 120w not 240w. Now where the advantage comes in is you are sending a full 120w to the bass driver, it does not have to share with the tweets/mids anymore. So for example (pulling numbers out of the air) your bass driver may take 90% of the available 120w leaving only 10% of the power for the tweets/mids. Now that it is bi-amped the tweets/mids have their own 120w to draw from (even though they may only need, say,... 12% of that 120w).
That is the advantage of bi-amping with the passive crossovers,... it also does not take into account the draw on the power supply or any other variables.
I hope this helps,...

I would just interject that when the bass driver of the speaker need so much peak power, I doubt the other two will be looking for such peaks, so, it is almost a no issue, especially with the passive crossover? Your thoughts?

 

[nova]

I agree,.... I think for the most part there will not be much, if any difference. Then again I also think some speakers may benefit from this. Right now my speakers are bi-amped using a 3805,.... I have really noticed no difference. I have however enjoyed playing around with it,... its rather interesting to hear the effects of hitting my woofers with more or less power/volume via the zone2 volume control while the mids and tweeters stay the same,....