Ideal placement of surrounds for m/c music

[supervij]

I did a search for this subject, and came up only with threads concerned with surround placement for movies/TV. My question is more in regards to multi-channel music.

I know that for music, the surrounds should be at ear level, but what is the proper spot? I've tried having my surrounds at 90, 105 and 125 degrees. None of them made me super happy. The 90 was too in-your-face, the 125 lacked impact, the 105 was great for impact, but still a little in-your-face. (I guess I need to try 115 degrees next, right?)

And what about toe-in? I don't like having the surrounds pointing directly at me, as it gives that in-your-face feeling I don't like. And my mains are toed in, but not facing directly at me. Only the centre speaker is. Should I toe my surrounds so that they face more towards the centre of the room, or face them away from the centre?

Any consensus on this issue?

cheers,
supervij

 

[supervij]

Okay, slow down, people! Get in line if ya wanna respond back; no crowding now!



Yeah, so I went to sa-cd.net, and they recommend anywhere from 110 to 120 degrees. So it turns out I will be trying out the 115 after all.

On the audioholics set-up tips, there's set-up suggestions for movies/TV, but not for multi-channel music. Curious . . .

cheers,
supervij

 

[tbewick]

Okay, slow down, people! Get in line if ya wanna respond back; no crowding now!



Yeah, so I went to sa-cd.net, and they recommend anywhere from 110 to 120 degrees. So it turns out I will be trying out the 115 after all.

On the audioholics set-up tips, there's set-up suggestions for movies/TV, but not for multi-channel music. Curious . . .

cheers,
supervij

Maybe this'll help

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/4_Multichannel_Music_Mixing.pdf

 

[supervij]

Hey, cool beans! Thanks for that link, tbewick! I never noticed that pdf at dolby's website!

I notice dolby even talks about inclination, which is cool. No mention of toe-in, so I guess they prefer everything pointed directly at the listener. The problem with that for me is that my mains (which I also use for movies/TV) aren't pointed directly at my listening position. They're toed in a bit to the degree that audioholics recommends for movies/TV. So I prefer to toe in my surrounds as well.

It seems that dolby suggests having the surrounds anywhere from 100 to 120 degrees, while sa-cd.net recommends 110 to 120 degrees. Guess I'll try 110 and 115 degrees, and see what I think.

Thanks again, tbewick!

cheers,
supervij

 

[cutlas]

You mentioned you liked 105 but found it too in your face. Have you SPL'd the listening area? Maybe the rears are putting higher DB's when @ 105.

The other thing you may want to work with is not just rely on reviews and recommendations - everyone's ear is different so what they recommend may not suit your needs. It's a matter of inches so patience/lots of listening is your friend.

One last suggestion, multi-channel music - do you mean dvd-a or regular 2 channel with some sound processing. If you're using some style of sound processing it could be the culprit as well.

Have fun,

 

[supervij]

Hi cutlas. No, I'm referring to SACDs and DVD-As -- no processing. Yeah, I know that everyone's ears and listening environments are different, and we have to figure out what works best for us (the audioholics mantra!), but I guess I like to have some guidelines and recommendations to use as a starting point. After that I can play/experiment.

I did the level matching for all speakers each time I moved the surrounds. I think I may be coming to the conclusion that j_garcia (at least, I think it was him) came to when he said that the surrounds always seemed just a wee bit too loud, so he reduced the surrounds by 1 dB after level matching. I have found that the surrounds are too in your face and take away from the other speakers, but only when those surrounds are at ear level. Maybe I'll have to do just that, but first I'll try the 115 degrees. Hopefully, I'll then find happiness.

I really was hoping other people would chime in with what they've done for their surrounds when it comes to m/c music. But as you said, I have to figure out what works best for me.

cheers,
supervij

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hi cutlas. No, I'm referring to SACDs and DVD-As -- no processing. Yeah, I know that everyone's ears and listening environments are different, and we have to figure out what works best for us (the audioholics mantra!), but I guess I like to have some guidelines and recommendations to use as a starting point. After that I can play/experiment.

I did the level matching for all speakers each time I moved the surrounds. I think I may be coming to the conclusion that j_garcia (at least, I think it was him) came to when he said that the surrounds always seemed just a wee bit too loud, so he reduced the surrounds by 1 dB after level matching. I have found that the surrounds are too in your face and take away from the other speakers, but only when those surrounds are at ear level. Maybe I'll have to do just that, but first I'll try the 115 degrees. Hopefully, I'll then find happiness.

I really was hoping other people would chime in with what they've done for their surrounds when it comes to m/c music. But as you said, I have to figure out what works best for me.

cheers,
supervij

Have you tried placing the surrounds at the same height it is recommended for HT, several feet above ear level?

 

[supervij]

I use bookshelves for my surrounds, and they sit on a shelf which is two and a half feet above seated ear level, at about 95 degrees or so. I leave them there for movies and TV, and only bring them down to ear level (speaker stands) when I'm in the mood to listen to m/c music.

I have tried a couple times leaving them up there for m/c music, and it sounded very strange. The elevated position of the surrounds made the music seem very off balanced. It just doesn't work the same with m/c music, at least for me -- the surrounds need to be at ear level.

With movies/TV, the surrounds aren't used as much. They're used mainly for ambiance and occasional discrete effects due to people or things on the screen moving around, or something happening off screen. With attention riveted to the screen, the surrounds enhance what's happening.

With music though, the surrounds are in constant use. And having them in the wrong position means that they will either be in your face and take away from the front three speakers, or you'll barely notice them at all. I'm still trying to find that perfect spot where they're noticeable and blend perfectly with what's coming out of the front three.

I found a website a while back -- I can't remember the name of it, but I found the link to it at quadraphonicquad.com, where various speaker positions were recommended based on the ear's ability to "place" sounds. They ended up recommending 90 or 95 degrees for the surrounds for m/c music because we can still easily "place" where the sounds are coming from. Any further back, and we can't as easily. Well, I tried it at 90, and after level-matching, oh man were those surrounds in-your-face! I barely noticed what was happening in the front three speakers, and I never felt that any sounds were coming from behind me, which I like (the running in DSotM, for example, or the moving singer in Alan Parson's On Air, or Peter Gabriel's "Digging in the Dirt"). So I'll give the 115 degree/ear level spot a try tomorrow with fingers crossed.

cheers,
supervij

 

[mtrycrafts]

With movies/TV, the surrounds aren't used as much. cheers,
supervij

This tells me something. You want more out of the surrounds with music than with movies. There are no musical instruments in the back unless you are in the band. I only want the same ambiance with music as with movies, or less, in case there is direct action behind the viewer.

 

[supervij]

Now, I'm well aware that you're a true audioholic, mtrycrafts. You've got a pretty huge post count, and you've helped a lot of people here, and I know that you know your stuff. Having said that . . . you have listened to m/c music, right?! And I don't mean 2-channel music that's been DPLed or somehow processed.

Sure, some SACDs and DVD-As don't have much going on in the surrounds, but some do. Some really do. Like the new Genesis SACDs. Like Peter Gabriel's one SACD and one DTS video compilation. The music is spread out to include the surrounds, not just for ambiance and effects, but for quite a bit of discrete music. Heck, sometimes, the lead vocals can be heard exclusively in the surrounds (pg's "Digging in the Dirt").

"There are no musical instruments in the back." C'mon, mtrycrafts, I respect your opinion and your knowledge a lot, but that just doesn't jive with the SACDs and DVD-As I've heard. Porcupine Tree, anyone? Plenty of instruments all over the place.

You only want ambiance in your surrounds. That's peachy keen with me. But a lot of artists/mixers don't mix their 5.1 music that way. Live music, I understand. For that, I'd only want audience, ambiance, and some reverb coming out of the surrounds. But I'm talking about studio albums remixed in 5.1. And quite often, there's a fair bit going on in the surrounds.

cheers,
supervij

 

[mtrycrafts]

Now, I'm well aware that you're a true audioholic, mtrycrafts. You've got a pretty huge post count, and you've helped a lot of people here, and I know that you know your stuff. Having said that . . . you have listened to m/c music, right?! And I don't mean 2-channel music that's been DPLed or somehow processed.

Sure, some SACDs and DVD-As don't have much going on in the surrounds, but some do. Some really do. Like the new Genesis SACDs. Like Peter Gabriel's one SACD and one DTS video compilation. The music is spread out to include the surrounds, not just for ambiance and effects, but for quite a bit of discrete music. Heck, sometimes, the lead vocals can be heard exclusively in the surrounds (pg's "Digging in the Dirt").

"There are no musical instruments in the back." C'mon, mtrycrafts, I respect your opinion and your knowledge a lot, but that just doesn't jive with the SACDs and DVD-As I've heard. Porcupine Tree, anyone? Plenty of instruments all over the place.

You only want ambiance in your surrounds. That's peachy keen with me. But a lot of artists/mixers don't mix their 5.1 music that way. Live music, I understand. For that, I'd only want audience, ambiance, and some reverb coming out of the surrounds. But I'm talking about studio albums remixed in 5.1. And quite often, there's a fair bit going on in the surrounds.

cheers,
supervij

I have listened to DD5.1 music and one in particular recorded in a huge church someplace, the choral version of the 1812. Sure there are singers in the back channel and up high is just great to replicate their balcony location.

But, I have yet to go to a concert or a smaller venue where the musicians were behind me or the audience as well. While some SACD and a few DVD-A may have lots of direct music in the back, how real is it in the world of live performances? But, you will have to decide where you want it, others can only suggest
Maybe, you can mount those rear speakers on a pole so you can easily slide it up or down?

 

[supervij]

We're drifting off topic, but mtrycrafts, I have to say again that a 5.1 mix of a studio album is almost never intended to re-create a live environment such as a concert. One listen to any popular rock SACD or DVD-A should have convinced you of that! The SACD of DSotM, or Brothers in Arms (two of the most highly acclaimed rock albums that have been remixed in 5.1) DO NOT have any corelation to a live venue, and were NEVER intended to be such. Even the DVD-A of The Beatles' Love, although originally a soundtrack to a Cirque de Soleil event, is not mixed in such a way as to give you an idea of what it sounded like live.

There's more to SACD and DVD-A than a re-creation of live concerts!

I like to think of 5.1 studio mixes as a sonic ride or a wide expanse of a sonic landscape. Not everything is up front in such a mix, nor should it be.

cheers,
supervij

 

[mtrycrafts]

I like to think of 5.1 studio mixes as a sonic ride or a wide expanse of a sonic landscape. Not everything is up front in such a mix, nor should it be.
cheers,
supervij

OK, but then why is music different from movie 5.1? Unless you want that wild ride to happen at the same elevation as the front is projected. But then one has to ask, is that what they intended? By the way, I don't listen to such rock discs. I prefer different music.

 

[supervij]

I believe the difference lies in the use of far more discrete sounds and a lack of a visual element.

The TV/projector screen rivets your attention. As much as we appreciate high quality sound and the use of surrounds, we pay less attention to the sound than on what's happening on screen, plus what's happening with the story, the characters, etc. (well, if it's a good story/character!) The use of surrounds complements this, as it's usually unobtrusive ambiance with some discrete sounds added as well. And even if there's a lot of discrete stuff happening in the surrounds, it comes as a result of what's happening on screen, and being elevated, doesn't distract from what's happening on screen. The surrounds don't necessarily blend with what's coming from the front three speakers, so it's not necessary for the surrounds to be at ear level, and again, needs to be elevated in order to let that ambiance fill the room rather than be focused on the listener.

But with m/c music, there's far, far more going on in the surrounds -- at least with the music I listen to (some of which were mentioned in earlier posts in this thread). There's generally far less ambiance, and more discrete sounds -- sounds/instruments that are intended to blend with the music from the front three speakers, more so than with movies/TV. That blending makes it more important for the surrounds to be at ear level. (Which is why for movies/TV, having surrounds that aren't timbre-matched to the fronts is less important; with m/c music, the recommendation is to have five identical speakers all around.) Plus, not having a visual element (the screen) to anchor your attention, having elevated surrounds creates an imbalance that is very noticeable, and not at all enjoyable. At least for me.

My little summary: If the surrounds are meant primarily for ambiance, then yes, they should be elevated so that they're unobtrusive and the sounds will be more diffuse. If the surrounds are meant to be more discrete and to blend with the rest of the sound, then ear level makes more sense.

At least, that's my take.

cheers,
supervij