I was recently looking for some into and was wondering why

[mys_iii]

hi-fi magazines never seem to do interconnect or speaker cable measurements? For other components, the usual set of "frequency response", "distortion", etc. are done but when it comes to cables, nobody seems to publish the most important info ( at least to me ), the frequency response curve? They merely describe what the cable was like but that's like describing how food tastes. Not very useful to me at all.

 

[Swerd]

hi-fi magazines never seem to do interconnect or speaker cable measurements? For other components, the usual set of "frequency response", "distortion", etc. are done but when it comes to cables, nobody seems to publish the most important info ( at least to me ), the frequency response curve? They merely describe what the cable was like but that's like describing how food tastes. Not very useful to me at all.

Cables are passive devices (unlike speakers or amplifiers) and, as such, have no frequency response that is relevant to audio. If they do have a limit to the bandwith of frequencies they can pass, it is many orders of magnitude larger than the rather narrow audio bandwith of 20 - 20,000 Hz.

If any of these curves did exist, do you expect to see a difference?

 

[markw]

When one deals in faith, it's best to keep science out of the equation.

hi-fi magazines never seem to do interconnect or speaker cable measurements?

Remember, those reviews are only opinions, which can neither be proven or disproven Measurements are statements of facts that can be verified.

There's a lot of money to be made with those ambiguous, hard-to-pin-down glowing reviews. It's something called "puffery", which is a common term in marketing.

They would alienate a lot of their readers and most likely lose advertisers if they openly popped that illusionary balloon.

 

[mys_iii]

Cables are passive devices (unlike speakers or amplifiers) and, as such, have no frequency response that is relevant to audio. If they do have a limit to the bandwith of frequencies they can pass, it is many orders of magnitude larger than the rather narrow audio bandwith of 20 - 20,000 Hz.

If any of these curves did exist, do you expect to see a difference?

That's what I thought exactly and did my own experiments with cables at home with really no audible differences. That may be for a variety of reasons like I can't hear the differences or my system isn't good enough to reveal the differences, etc. What I was really getting at is that many people claim on all Hi-Fi boards that they used cable X and heard more than Y. The only way I can see that happening is if the cables were similar to any other component and had some sort of non-flat frequency response that would affect the frequencies going through it. The only thing I've come across with cables that can have a negative affect in practice is how well the connectors are built. Bad connections can lead to buzzing sounds. I feel that magazines don't publish such info in order to avoid bursting the "cable" bubble.

 

[mys_iii]

Remember, those reviews are only opinions, which can neither be proven or disproven Measurements are statements of facts that can be verified.

There's a lot of money to be made with those ambiguous, hard-to-pin-down glowing reviews. It's something called "puffery", which is a common term in marketing.

They would alienate a lot of their readers and most likely lose advertisers if they openly popped that illusionary balloon.

Yeah. I never take reviews as a "word of God". For me, it's only a guideline or rather a set of opinions and nothing more. That's not to say that reviewers can't give some good feedback on a product and point out it's strengths and weaknesses. I like to evaluate things myself.

 

[Swerd]

Grasshopper, you have learned well...

Simple common sense should make anyone ask, "How much difference could simple copper wires make?"

H.L. Menken once said "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

The number of audio cable makers in today's market making extravagent claims and profits are a living & breathing demonstration of the truth in those words.

 

[markw]

I agree with everythng you say here.

That's what I thought exactly and did my own experiments with cables at home with really no audible differences. That may be for a variety of reasons like I can't hear the differences or my system isn't good enough to reveal the differences, etc. What I was really getting at is that many people claim on all Hi-Fi boards that they used cable X and heard more than Y. The only way I can see that happening is if the cables were similar to any other component and had some sort of non-flat frequency response that would affect the frequencies going through it. The only thing I've come across with cables that can have a negative affect in practice is how well the connectors are built. Bad connections can lead to buzzing sounds. I feel that magazines don't publish such info in order to avoid bursting the "cable" bubble.

And, most of us have come to the same conclusions. When we say we can't hear the "night and day" differences some swear to, we're told either of two things.

1) Our equipment isn't resolving enough. If that's the case, why would we even want to bother with these hi-zoot cables? Oh, I see... I'm supposed to upgrade my system to a level where I can hear these differences? Now THAT makes sense!

or 2) Our hearing isn't up to snuff. Again, see second sentence in # 1.

And, yes, physical construction is important. Sturdy is one attribute and adequate shielding is another, but neither of these costs a fortune to implement.

 

[Audioholics]

And with all that... we bring you:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/speakercablefaceoff01.php

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/speakercablereviewsfaceoff.php

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/cables.htm

 

[Ampdog]

I was just about to mention those articles/tests. These analyses are some of the best around.

Just to sum up: I have experience that quite a few magazines have a hard time working out both how not to alienate the advertisers nor the readers.

No resistance, impedance, inductance or capacitance in normal lengths of either loudspeaker cable or interconnects in domestic use can remotely make a difference. The capacitance of long interconnects used with high output impedance sources come closest, but no commercial device I know of has such a poor line output impedance as to make this a factor.

In fact, there had been mention on other threads that the degree to which promotion/manufacturers refer to improvement of the above characteristics, simply reveals their ignorance of basic electronic principles.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The capacitance of long interconnects used with high output impedance sources come closest, but no commercial device I know of has such a poor line output impedance as to make this a factor.
.

Not sure what you mean by 'commercial' devices. Components available on consumer market? Then, passive preamps come to mind. And, this is a worthwhile paper to get, free, if still available from them:

Hayward, James 'Beating the Bafflegab & Filtering the FooFooDust,' Part 1- Marshall's Audio Ideas Guide(Canada) Summer/Fall 94

Hayward, James 'Making the Connection. Part Deux: A Closer Look at the Role of Loudspeaker Cables,' Winter 95. Reprints available from Kimberkable.

You can get significant rolloff down to 5kHz.

 

[skizzerflake]

hi-fi magazines never seem to do interconnect or speaker cable measurements? For other components, the usual set of "frequency response", "distortion", etc. are done but when it comes to cables, nobody seems to publish the most important info ( at least to me ), the frequency response curve? They merely describe what the cable was like but that's like describing how food tastes. Not very useful to me at all.

Maybe it's because they can't measure any characteristic of decent cables that is significant enough to be audible in any measurable way. Cables are a great case of the power of suggestion, like an insurance agent asked you if your current insurance covered you against alien invasion....you didn't know you need to worry about that so you start worrying. I have "heard" lots of cables over the years and I can't say that I ever heard any reliable effect except if the contacts were dirty and/or the cable had loose wires, corrosion, etc.

Since these are all negatives that are remedied by contact cleaning or replacement, my conclusion is to buy decent cables (the sort you can get at Radio Shack, not $300/foot magic cables) and a vial of contact cleaner ($3 at an electronics store). Clean and dry contacts carefully with everything unplugged, plug in the cables, being sure the contact is tight and well seated. If your contacts were dirty and dusty, the cleaning job may be a $1000 tweak.

 

[mys_iii]

Maybe it's because they can't measure any characteristic of decent cables that is significant enough to be audible in any measurable way. Cables are a great case of the power of suggestion, like an insurance agent asked you if your current insurance covered you against alien invasion....you didn't know you need to worry about that so you start worrying. I have "heard" lots of cables over the years and I can't say that I ever heard any reliable effect except if the contacts were dirty and/or the cable had loose wires, corrosion, etc.

Since these are all negatives that are remedied by contact cleaning or replacement, my conclusion is to buy decent cables (the sort you can get at Radio Shack, not $300/foot magic cables) and a vial of contact cleaner ($3 at an electronics store). Clean and dry contacts carefully with everything unplugged, plug in the cables, being sure the contact is tight and well seated. If your contacts were dirty and dusty, the cleaning job may be a $1000 tweak.

Yes. I agree. The figures mentioned in those links for the inductance and capacitance differences between wires are very small and I doubt that they would affect the audible spectrum all that much. If we go up to MHz range of frequencies, they probably would make a difference. I've been trying to "hear" the differences between different interconnects that I have without success. I'm glad I didn't spend a fortune on interconnects.

 

[Ampdog]

Not sure what you mean by 'commercial' devices. Components available on consumer market? Then, passive preamps come to mind. And, this is a worthwhile paper to get, free, if still available from them:

Hayward, James 'Beating the Bafflegab & Filtering the FooFooDust,' Part 1- Marshall's Audio Ideas Guide(Canada) Summer/Fall 94

Hayward, James 'Making the Connection. Part Deux: A Closer Look at the Role of Loudspeaker Cables,' Winter 95. Reprints available from Kimberkable.

You can get significant rolloff down to 5kHz.

I stand totally corrected, Mtrycrafts. Yes, I meant pre-amps available on the consumer market. Passive "pre-amps" that should only be called control units (no amplification) did not enter my mind, but you are absolutely correct. I will try to get hold of the articles suggested by you, but in the meantime the owners of those few control units that are on the market would need to study the characteristics of unit and cable to arrive at an optimum solution.

Thanks for correcting this.