I think I should give up on 2 channel...

[Whitey80]

Saw an ad on the sidebar here yesterday for Hear No Evil in Denver. Never heard of it before, so I googled and find that it's barely over a mile from my house. "Why not go check it out." I say to my self.

Go over and see that they have a very nice and organized little showroom broken down to individual listening areas. "oooh, those KEF Reference 207/2's look awesome sitting there in the same finish as my KEF Q's, I wanna hear them."

Sit down and I request something with heavy male vocals (didn't bring any listening material with me). Not sure what it was they selected, but it was very good. Anyways....so we have the giant KEFs running back to a pair of McIntosh MC501s fed from a C2300 tube pre, and a disc player that I cannot recall.

The sound stage was the first thing that strikes you as, "wow, this is seriously impressive" even in the massively open space, they filled every inch of it. detailed, clear and impactful....etc. Listening to Paradigm Sig 8's next to them made with the same track sounded really dull with no presence.

Sorry, this isn't a review.......
......it's a lamentation that sound like that costs as much as my car, brand new truck, and 2 motorcycles combined.

(maybe I could sell all of that and buy me a new 2 channel setup....walking is supposed to be good for you, right? )

 

[Swerd]

… Sit down and I request something with heavy male vocals (didn't bring any listening material with me). Not sure what it was they selected, but it was very good. Anyways....so we have the giant KEF Reference 207/2s running back to a pair of McIntosh MC501s fed from a C2300 tube pre, and a disc player that I cannot recall.

The sound stage was the first thing that strikes you as, "wow, this is seriously impressive" even in the massively open space, they filled every inch of it. detailed, clear and impactful....etc. Listening to Paradigm Sig 8's next to them made with the same track sounded really dull with no presence.

Sorry, this isn't a review.......
......it's a lamentation that sound like that costs as much as my car, brand new truck, and 2 motorcycles combined.

Thanks for the quick impressions of the KEFs. For $20k a pair, you'd expect nearly perfect speakers and these seem to deliver. See the Stereophile review measurements.

Recently, we have panned some other expensive and highly touted speakers because their measurements, frankly, looked terrible. Not these KEFs!

Reading the various comments in the review, I think these speakers might be fairly easy to drive. They are sensitive at 91 dB/2.83 volts and have 4 ohm impedance that is unusually flat looking across the lower frequencies. Its nice that the dealer used those pricey McIntosh amps, but these speakers may do very well with more modestly priced amps.

So you can keep your car or the truck, but not both .

 

[3db]

Saw an ad on the sidebar here yesterday for Hear No Evil in Denver. Never heard of it before, so I googled and find that it's barely over a mile from my house. "Why not go check it out." I say to my self.

Go over and see that they have a very nice and organized little showroom broken down to individual listening areas. "oooh, those KEF Reference 207/2's look awesome sitting there in the same finish as my KEF Q's, I wanna hear them."

Sit down and I request something with heavy male vocals (didn't bring any listening material with me). Not sure what it was they selected, but it was very good. Anyways....so we have the giant KEFs running back to a pair of McIntosh MC501s fed from a C2300 tube pre, and a disc player that I cannot recall.

The sound stage was the first thing that strikes you as, "wow, this is seriously impressive" even in the massively open space, they filled every inch of it. detailed, clear and impactful....etc. Listening to Paradigm Sig 8's next to them made with the same track sounded really dull with no presence.

Sorry, this isn't a review.......
......it's a lamentation that sound like that costs as much as my car, brand new truck, and 2 motorcycles combined.

(maybe I could sell all of that and buy me a new 2 channel setup....walking is supposed to be good for you, right? )

I find that surprising given Paradigm's frequency response curves which appear failry equal to that of the KEFS.
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_signature_s8/

Were the Signatures setup in the same room? set up identically away from the walls like the KEFs?

 

[Whitey80]

I find that surprising given Paradigm's frequency response curves which appear failry equal to that of the KEFS.
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_signature_s8/

Were the Signatures setup in the same room? set up identically away from the walls like the KEFs?

Yeah, the physical layouts were identical. The Paradigms were hooked up to Marantz Reference MA9-S2's and a matching pre an disc player though.
On paper they appear similar, but in actual listening, it was night and day......too bad, because the Paradigm's are actually attainable by cost.

edit - They did offer to move the Sig 8's over to the McIntosh setup to give a truer comparison. The staff was extremely friendly and passionate about audio)

 

[3db]

Yeah, the physical layouts were identical. The Paradigms were hooked up to Marantz Reference MA9-S2's and a matching pre an disc player though.
On paper they appear similar, but in actual listening, it was night and day......too bad, because the Paradigm's are actually attainable by cost.

edit - They did offer to move the Sig 8's over to the McIntosh setup to give a truer comparison. The staff was extremely friendly and passionate about audio)

I love the passionate part.

However, I don't think you need to spend that much money to get good quality 2 channel sound. Listen to some Salks or PSB Synchronies and you should be happily surprised at how much sound you can get between 2K and 4K speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

On paper they appear similar, but in actual listening, it was night and day......

I believe it.

How the speakers measure "on paper" is usually a good starting point, but I guess that's why we have to actually listen to the speakers before we buy them.

So the KEF just had more presence and sounded more exciting, fun, alive & kicking, but accurate at the same time? The KEF sounded like "WOW!" and not like "What? Huh? That's it? That's all you got?"

Is that what you are saying?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...KEFs running back to a pair of McIntosh MC501s fed from a C2300 tube pre, and a disc player...

The Paradigms were hooked up to Marantz Reference MA9-S2's and a matching pre an disc player...

I don't think the electronics made the difference.

The KEF would have sounded fantastic even with an Emotiva XPA amp or similar.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the quick impressions of the KEFs. For $20k a pair, you'd expect nearly perfect speakers and these seem to deliver. See the Stereophile review measurements.

Recently, we have panned some other expensive and highly touted speakers because their measurements, frankly, looked terrible. Not these KEFs!

Reading the various comments in the review, I think these speakers might be fairly easy to drive. They are sensitive at 91 dB/2.83 volts and have 4 ohm impedance that is unusually flat looking across the lower frequencies. Its nice that the dealer used those pricey McIntosh amps, but these speakers may do very well with more modestly priced amps.

So you can keep your car or the truck, but not both .

That is a speaker I've wanted to hear for a long time. However none of the KEF dealers round here will stock it.

I don't doubt it sounds good. It really is a potent full ranger.

There really is nothing like a no holes barred good integrated full range speaker. We were talking about this at AES recently.

Sorry 3db but I would bet your other offerings are nothing close to those, as per Whitey's impressions.

That seems like the benchmark price for a good full range speaker by the way.

Since they use one mid coax, it seems they needed to use another driver to cover the step loss compensation.

This is were active scores. I can relieve my mids by sending two discrete signals to one of my 10" bass drivers, the low end and the step loss signal. This I would be pretty certain makes for even tighter integration.

 

[Swerd]

That is a speaker I've wanted to hear for a long time. However none of the KEF dealers round here will stock it.

I don't doubt it sounds good. It really is a potent full ranger.

There really is nothing like a no holes barred good integrated full range speaker. We were talking about this at AES recently.

Sorry 3db but I would bet your other offerings are nothing close to those, as per Whitey's impressions.

That seems like the benchmark price for a good full range speaker by the way.

Since they use one mid coax, it seems they needed to use another driver to cover the step loss compensation.

This is were active scores. I can relieve my mids by sending two discrete signals to one of my 10" bass drivers, the low end and the step loss signal. This I would be pretty certain makes for even tighter integration.

I'd like to compare the KEF to the Salk SoundScape 12, which sells internet direct for $15k. See the specs, FR and impedance curves.

I've heard it, and it is fits my definition of None Better.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'd like to compare the KEF to the Salk SoundScape 12, which sells internet direct for $15k. See the specs, FR and impedance curves.

I've heard it, and it is fits my definition of None Better.

I bet that is a potent speaker also. The port turbulence of the mass loaded TL they encountered, is further evidence that the mass loaded TL is in fact a reflex cabinet.

I have looked at the Acutron they have selected. There is only one in that range that looks really promising.

I would bet they used this one.

Basically being internet direct saves the customer at least 5KHz versus having to buy from a brick and mortar dealer, which would be about his profit.

The cost of the build and development of my front three was 13.5 K. That does not include the electronics. The cost of the crossover was minimal. But then you have to add in three two channel power amps, for the front mains, and not one and the cost of a buffer amp. So it ends up about 15 k for DIY and Internet Direct and at least 20 K for a dealer. But I get three speakers, but have to add another electronic crossover and another two channel power amp. Although freight and packaging would be a killer on my speakers.

Any way you slice it, you can't do a good true full range speaker on the cheap.

Even at Salk's 15 K price I don't think he will get very rich from those speakers. In fact in my view he will do well to break even, after all the up front costs.

 

[Swerd]

I bet that is a potent speaker also. The port turbulence of the mass loaded TL they encountered, is further evidence that the mass loaded TL is in fact a reflex cabinet.

I saw that MLTL attempt. It blew bits of polyfill stuffing out the porthole some six feet across the room. It made a better leaf blower than a woofer . The version with the two passive drivers works much better in a cabinet that size.

I have looked at the Acutron they have selected. There is only one in that range that looks really promising.

I would bet they used this one.

The midrange is 5", either the C90-6-78 or C90-6-79, I don't remember which.

The midrange cabinet is open at the back - an open line. You can vary the stuffing from none to full, or even close the back, resulting in variable depth of the soundstage. It took quite a bit of trial & error, but it works well.

That speaker does the best disappearing job I ever heard any speaker do. That price is too much for me, I'd be extremely happy with the HT2-TL. At least I can imagine being able to afford that.

 

[TLS Guy]

I saw that MLTL attempt. It blew bits of polyfill stuffing out the porthole some six feet across the room. It made a better leaf blower than a woofer . The version with the two passive drivers works much better in a cabinet that size.

The midrange is 5", either the C90-6-78 or C90-6-79, I don't remember which.

The midrange cabinet is open at the back - an open line. You can vary the stuffing from none to full, or even close the back, resulting in variable depth of the soundstage. It took quite a bit of trial & error, but it works well.

That speaker does the best disappearing job I ever heard any speaker do. That price is too much for me, I'd be extremely happy with the HT2-TL. At least I can imagine being able to afford that.

I imagine its the 78, the 79 does not look too promising.

I have had my eye on this mid driver for a while, but you would need two to get the power handling. It has a really wide bandwidth.

You would not be able to build a TL to go as low as that in a cabinet that size.

I did a lot of work with TL mid range enclosures when I build my previous speakers, now my rears. I did not like a straight TL, because the rear radiation had an irregular frequency response. I chose a relatively short folded over damped line and it has worked very well, with the Dynaudio M75.

The fold is important to prevent radiation of high frequencies from the port.

You can see the port below the driver.

 

[3db]

Sorry 3db but I would bet your other offerings are nothing close to those, as per Whitey's impressions.

.

No worries. I guess it sucks to not be able obtain what one can't afford.

His 2 channel dreams are dashed I suppose.

 

[walter duque]

I don't know why we even listen to equipmet we can't afford. Last time I checked out some Sonus Faber Stradivarius powered by 600 watt Krell Mono Blocks I went home and unplugged my system for a few months. I still can't get over how good that system sounded. I haven't been the same since.

 

[Pyrrho]

I don't know why we even listen to equipmet we can't afford. Last time I checked out some Sonus Faber Stradivarius powered by 600 watt Krell Mono Blocks I went home and unplugged my system for a few months. I still can't get over how good that system sounded. I haven't been the same since.

I think it helps if one listens to a variety of different types of speakers to observe that different ones do different things better than others. I personally am very happy with what I own, even though I have heard much more expensive speakers. I actually like mine better than some speakers I have heard that retail for about 3 or 4 times as much as mine, though mine are not better in every way at all; they are quite different.

Furthermore, which sets of virtues and vices matter will not only depend upon personal taste, but also on the music one listens to. If I only listened to Jimi Hendrix, I would make do with much less expensive and bothersome speakers without giving up much, as hearing the recorded distortion with pristine clarity is not much better than adding a slight amount of distortion to it.

Also, it is hard to tell how the different speakers would all sound in your own room set up as well as possible, without actually doing that, and then obviously it would not be possible in a normal home to go back and forth quickly between two different sets of speakers that were both optimally set up.

If you are bothered by the expensive speakers, try listening to a wide variety of music on them, and compare them with other expensive speakers with that same wide variety of music. I would expect that there is a good chance you will prefer one set of speakers with one piece of music, and another with a different type of music. At that point, the imagined greatness of the expensive speakers will be diminished, as one will then know that they don't sound better than every other speaker in every way.

But, of course, the whole problem could be avoided by never listening to speakers that one cannot afford or obtain in the first place.

 

[highfigh]

If I only listened to Jimi Hendrix, I would make do with much less expensive and bothersome speakers without giving up much, as hearing the recorded distortion with pristine clarity is not much better than adding a slight amount of distortion to it.

You might want to try the remastered versions- they sound a lot better than you seem to think.

 

[Pyrrho]

You might want to try the remastered versions- they sound a lot better than you seem to think.

If you mean the "Hendrix Family Authorized Edition," which do sound significantly better than an earlier CD version, then my original comments stand. Indeed, the original recordings had considerable distortion, as that was part of the music that Hendrix intended. So there is no such thing as a version without significant levels of distortion for many of his recordings.

I assure you that there is no need for Apogee Stage speakers with any of his recordings.


Edited to add:

This reminds me of an interesting experience years ago, in which an acquaintance and I compared my CD of a Sex Pistols album with his LP of it on my stereo (at that time, it was a Magnavox CD player that was quite heavy and highly regarded, a Pioneer turntable with Shure cartridge, a Pioneer SX-1250 receiver, and Heybrook HB-2 speakers [from the early 1980's; not to be confused with a different speaker with the same model number years later]). My CD sounded clearer and less distorted than the LP. The LP sounded "better" to us, probably because the album is supposed to have plenty of distortion and was not intended to be heard cleaner than originally released. Recorded distortion typically does not seem to need "clean" reproduction to sound "right."

 

[ski2xblack]

...........PM sent