I need to check perception on Sub choice

[Nitecapt]

Hi folks, I'm new here and while I have a GREAT home stereo system, I am starting to set up a HT system. Nothing fancy at all, it's just going to be a pair of good speakers and a sub.
Now, let me explain a couple of things. I HATE rumble...to me..it muddies everything. I go to places like Best Buy with HT setups and hate them. Horrid, muddy sound. If I want to hear a boom, it should be a boom and then end, not constantly vibrating a room. I'm not looking to shatter windows, just to add crisp lows where they belong.
My music system has an Alon Thunderbolt sub which is great, but that's in a separate area of the house and I will not be using it for HT. It is quite musical with fast, tight bass.
My room is quite large, perhaps 15x20 with vaulted ceilings. Sound reverberates in this room due to it's size.
I am thinking about the SVS PB12-NSD and the Hsu VTF-2 MKIII. Am I on the right track? Do any members have a preference? They are pretty comparable in price with the HSU a bit less expensive.
Are these a toss up? If so, I can get the HSU and save a few bucks.
Opinions please?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Ray

 

[flippo]

the rumble

the rumble is usually built into the soundtrack of movies. The sub just plays what it is fed.

 

[shadyJ]

Bestbuy stores usually have poor presentations. While none of the subs they offer look impressive, I am sure most of them are capable of sounding better then what you hear in store. If you really want to avoid that sound, you should look into bass traps and subwoofer isolation pads.

As far as the PB12 vs the VTF2, from what I understand the PB12 will have a pretty significant output advantage below 25 hertz. If you are seeking deep and subsonic bass, between them that is where I would go. However, if that is what you are going for, I would skip the PB12 and go for the Elemental Designs A5-350 or A7s-450, those are not that much more expensive and will likely outperform the PB12 in that respect. If you are most concerned with bass above 25 hertz, go with the VTF2 and run it in max output mode, Hsu subs are noted for their musical aptitude, especially in output mode. If you want deep bass and Hsu's musical reputation, look at the VTF3. You might also take a look at Outlaw Audio's LFM line of subs, they are very similar to Hsu's VTF series. There will likely be a wait on the Elemental Designs and SVS subs, but the Hsu and Outlaw subs could probably be shipped to you immediately. If accuracy and detail are your highest priority, look into Rythmik subwoofers, although they wont have the massive output of the above mentioned subs.

 

[Nitecapt]

Thank You

Wow...quick response and thoughtful too!
You give me something to think about and now I need to get back to work looking at your other recommendations.
Again...many thanks
Now, about Outlaw, do you think the LFM-1 plus will be adequate? I get a sense that you are saying that the LFM's are as "musical" as the HSU's...correct? They are advertised to have a lower end than the HSU's.

 

[bread29]

Nitecapt,

I've owned a VTF3 MK3 for almost a year and I'm highly satisfied. This sub is very musical and can be variable tuned to your preference. I recently bought it's sister sub MBM12, which only covers mid-bass and was blown away with the accuracy and fast response. A plus is that if you decide to integrate it into HT use in the future, it easily dips down to 16-18 hz. I would go with 3 MK3, for the size of your room. Good luck.

 

[sholling]

Wow...quick response and thoughtful too!
You give me something to think about and now I need to get back to work looking at your other recommendations.
Again...many thanks
Now, about Outlaw, do you think the LFM-1 plus will be adequate? I get a sense that you are saying that the LFM's are as "musical" as the HSU's...correct? They are advertised to have a lower end than the HSU's.

There is a big difference between rumble from a cheap or poorly made sub or an improperly sized and straining sub and rumble from a properly sized high quality sub. One will be a muddy mess and the other will reproduce exactly what's in the bass track exactly as the studio intended. The second cause of muddy bass is how the sub interacts with the room itself. You may have to play with placement. Corners let you get away with smaller subs but can be boomy. And you may need a bass trap or two if a corner is giving you grief.

LMF-1 Plus vs EX and VTF-2 vs VTF-3 are best decided based on total room volume - including attached spaces open to the room. SVS doesn't post (that I could find) any room volume ratings for their products. Hsu does but it appears to be based on maximum output mode and low desired volumes. In other words they appear optimistic to me. I've learned to buy a sub based on worst (Best ) case. In other words I want extension as flat as possible down to at least 20hz at the maximum volumes that I might want to listen to, that's how SVS sizes. The nice thing with SVS is they won't try to over sell you. Hsu is equally honest and might even undersell bit based on their lower playback volume expectations. In my experience it's best to have plenty of sub and then control any undesirable effects with traps and isolation pads. You might also consider a sealed sub or two.

 

[shadyJ]

Now, about Outlaw, do you think the LFM-1 plus will be adequate? I get a sense that you are saying that the LFM's are as "musical" as the HSU's...correct? They are advertised to have a lower end than the HSU's.

I think the LFM-1 Plus would do very well, but I don't think it will significantly outdo the VTF2. That extra 100 watts of RMS power doesn't really get you much more output. Since the LFMs are using mostly the same design as the VTFs, it stands to reason that they should be as musical, but there may be some other factors that I am overlooking. Also, they will not have a lower end than the VTFs, at least not the VTF3. The VTF3 has longer port tubes than its Outlaw mirror, the LFM-1 EX, so it should be a bit stronger in the deep bass regions. The same may be true for the VTF2 vs the LFM-1 Plus, but I don't know that for certain, you will have to ask Hsu about the VTF2's port configuration. More port volume equals deeper tuning.

 

[Nitecapt]

LFM Plus and VTF-2

I think the plus is a wee bit less expensive.... I have champagne taste and a beer pocket

 

[jostenmeat]

The most important thing for getting "accurate" bass, avoiding "boom", or "muddiness", or to get the perception of having "quick/tight" bass will be with where you place yourself in the room, and where you place the subwoofer in the room. In fact, you might consider getting two lesser subs, particularly in your case, to go a long ways in evening out your room modes. The way I typically explain it to friends (don't have scientific evidence, but can link white papers for you) is having one sub is 50% the way there, two subs 95% there, four subs 99% the way there, and "infinite" subs filling the entire room as 100% the way there. This comes from someone only using one sub atm.

Of course acoustic treatments can go a long ways in treating your room modes, and most particularly for bass. Bang for spots are to treat boundary meetings, particularly on the front wall. Still, even the professionals who sell these things would tell you that placement of listener+sub is still the most important. Try to keep yourself off the back wall. Try 38% room length of your ears in the room, if possible, doesn't matter front or back.

Sumthin' to chew on. I hope I beat the horse enough times so that it's soon dead. I'm doing so because many hobbyists are very keen on output and extension, whereas you are not.

Perhaps a couple of Dayton kit subs at your budget, with some added damping materials inside of them. Dunno, good luck!

 

[Guiria]

Also if any of the subs you are considering offer parametric EQ that will help to remove the response peaks and clean up the sound significantly. Depending on your receiver it may have some parametric EQ capabilities (Audyssey, etc) built into it as well that can help clean up the sound. You could always get a stand alone EQ as well.

For any of these tools to work you would need atleast an spl meter, some form of test tones or pink noise sweeps, and some graphing ability be it excel or graph paper. You can get free test tones or sweeps online so really the only thing you'd have to spring for is an spl meter.

If your talking room treatments, etc you could atleast quantify the improvement if you had some in room response measuring ability.

I use a Radioshack SPL meter, REW for response software, and a Behringer BFD and it works excellent.

Good Luck