I don't know what I don't know.....yet

[Palmettokid]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post here and I hope I've chosen the best catagory. If not please let me know where it should go for future reference. Also if my question can be answered through previous posts point the way and I'll follow.

Now for the reason I'm here. We are curently new home shopping and have settled on a national tract builder who offers the floorplan we like at a price we can live with. I had hope to be wroking with a custom builder who would let me pre-wire the house for whole house audio, computer networks, etc. but I won't be able to with the current builder.

They do offer some pre-wire packages in the laundry list of add-ons and looks like I'm relegated to that. While they will prewire the house for whole house audio and computer network for less than 1000.00 if they add speakers it jumps to over 2000. I've been in several houses during various phases of construction and know that they install a panel in a closet that all the cable, phone, and computer networks originate from. They also run a cat 5 cable and 2 coax cables to each room location.

I currently have a small HT setup that will be used in the new house but may not be robust enough to power audio over the entire house but there may be a way to place equipment in the new house to access the existing prewire panel. I do not know If I'll be able to access all the interior walls to run cable after we move in, I'll pay more attention when we look at other houses under construction.

Here's the wish list:
1. We'll be adding a 50" plasma over the fireplace and will want surround sound in the family room. It would be nice to not have a bunch of electronic equipment sitting around the room or on the built in book shelves they provide. They will prewire for that but I believe that that wiring will be more local in origination and termination
2. I'd like to be able select different audio sources from several different locations thoroughout the house and contol the volume.
3. Possibly an intercom system incorporated into the audio system.

I know this post is pretty long but thought you need a complete picture. I'm very handy putting things together and don't mind going into the attic to fish wires. So what parts of making this dream a reality do I need to address and what are my options with a moderate budget.

 

[JVC]

I think I'd ask the contractor, "who's gonna pay you? Who's money is it? If I want to run wires, I'll run wires, as long as it's to code! If YOU'RE gonna pay for MY house, then you can do like you want to! You're working for ME....... not the other way around!"
But, that's just me. I'm funny that way............

 

[Spiffyfast]

I'd have to agree, he's working for you, not the other way around. That may be their policy to not let the home owner run wires, but I'd wager that if you pressed them, they won't want to dissapoint someone spending all that money with them. Just think, you tell one person about the situation that you had with that company, and that's thousands that they could possibly lose on a future sale, just because they wouldn't let you run wires...

 

[xboxweasel]

Usually something like this is a liability issue. The contractor does not carry insurance for you to be working on the property before you take possession. Perhaps he will accept someone else....another qualified trades person to do the jobs you require!!!

Maybe you have to sign a waiver that you will not sue in case you get injured!!!

 

[Palmettokid]

I believe that part of this issue is a warranty issue. Another major builder I talked to said that if I wanted to come in to install some wiring when there was no work going on they would not stop me. However, my work would not be warrantied and it could not impact their work schedule in any way.

I think in the past they may have allowed more leeway from the owners-to-be but have been bitten before it was all over. So now they just give you the opportunity to pick this option from the list of add-ons for the house. Charge inflated prices and install it with the other systems in the house.

Well, I've just come back from another trip to a house just like the one we're interested in. This is a one story home with an upstairs bonus room. I looks like I can get to many of the places I'll need to once the house is finished. I'll be able to tell more when I see this house again in framing.

There is room in the closet where all the cable and computer cables converge to place a rack for equipment and if I tap into a vent line I should be able to cool the closet too.

After the latest trip I believe that I can retrofit the audio systems I'll need but may have to get them to pre-wire for surround sound.

So the next step is....where does a noob go to learn about the different components I should be researching to build a rack of equipment that will meet my audio and video needs.

Thanks for your responses so far and I look forward to future recommendations.

 

[spider_duggan]

http://www.crestron.com/

This resource may be of some inspiration. These guys can help you wire a house with whole home everything. Good luck

 

[agarwalro]

This might help AH Showcase Home

 

[jcsprankle]

Ask the construction manager...

When I was building my house, I wanted to do the same thing...run my own data network and audio cables in the walls. I asked the sales manager and the people at the "design gallery" where we picked our carpet, cabinets, etc. Both said it was out of the question. I figured I'd have to do it after the fact with fish tape of something

Then, I spoke to a friend that suggested I talk with the construction manager. I did and asked him nicely if I could run cables for things that the builder wouldn't let me do. I showed a plan for where the cables were to run and explained how I would cover up the wall boxes so the drywallers wouldn't get confused. Since it made sense and didn't seem to be too terribly dangerous, he gave me the go ahead. I worked with him to get a date and finished everything myself.

Because I worked directly with the construction manager, I was able to install Cat5e cable to all rooms in the house (multiples to the living room and office), audio cable for all 5 speakers in my main 5.1 room, as well as two cable runs to the master bedroom and outside for patio speakers, and a wall unit to house the router, DSL modem and network switches.

Hope this helps and you can get that wire in there!

 

[~JC~]

"It is easier to ask for forgivness, than permission"

I wired my house during construction on the weekends, when they weren't working.

Don't quote me on this, but when you are buying a "tract" house, the concept for the contractor is economy of scale. They don't want (or allow) alot of customization, it slows down and confuses the crew. Good Luck.

 

[InTheIndustry]

It all depends on your state's laws...

I own an installation company in South Western Ohio and I recently ran into an issue like this. In our area a home owner is allowed to do their own work on their house or sub out the work themselves. However, a builder will discourage you from doing the work yourself or hiring another company that they don't "recommmend". Why? Because the builder usually has a contract with the company running the wiring. Made up example: The builder tells the home owner that they have a budget of $3K for phone and cable. The home owner is billed that $3K on the cost of the home. The installer than bills the builder $2.5K (or whatever the deal is). The builder makes $500 or more extra per house. Money spent over and above the $3K and the builder may or may not get a kick back depending on the agreement. Our builders recommend us because they want their customers to get the best treatment available, not because they need to make money on "the back end". And while we have no deals like that, we run into it a bunch when contacted by someone building a house. In those cases, the builder is usually not very accomodating to us and are jerks to work with.

My advice, do your own thing as long as you aren't going into the house and making the situation FUBAR. Remember: There is a reason people go to school, get certified, and make good $$$$'s doing custom integration.

 

[gmichael]

Usually something like this is a liability issue. The contractor does not carry insurance for you to be working on the property before you take possession. Perhaps he will accept someone else....another qualified trades person to do the jobs you require!!!

Maybe you have to sign a waiver that you will not sue in case you get injured!!!

Palmettokid,

Not sure about how it works where you are. But I am also having a house built and I am the one paying the insurance on it. I don't think that your builder should have a problem with you running the wire before the dry walls go in. Mine has told me that it would be better if I ran my own as long as I use double insulated wiring. This is mostly so the inspector doesn't have a problem.

 

[sjdgpt]

Hello everyone,

Now for the reason I'm here. We are curently new home shopping and have settled on a national tract builder who offers the floorplan we like at a price we can live with. I had hope to be wroking with a custom builder who would let me pre-wire the house for whole house audio, computer networks, etc. but I won't be able to with the current builder.

They do offer some pre-wire packages in the laundry list of add-ons and looks like I'm relegated to that. While they will prewire the house for whole house audio and computer network for less than 1000.00 if they add speakers it jumps to over 2000. I've been in several houses during various phases of construction and know that they install a panel in a closet that all the cable, phone, and computer networks originate from. They also run a cat 5 cable and 2 coax cables to each room location.

.

Is this a modular home (walls etc manufacturered in an environmentally controlled factory) that is assembled on site?

Or is this a stick house that is mass produced?

The modular home is NOT going to be prewired friendly unless it is done at the factory (and trying to change prefab blueprints is not going to be cost effective).

A stick house is a whole different matter. But builders are reluctant to let just anybody work on their buildings. (until they hand you the keys, it is THEIR building .... their baby if you will)



In my experience (having commercial buildings built for my usage) the contractors markup the work of every subcontractor that work on the building. Yes, there is a little of "you scratch my back, I will scratch your back" stuff that goes around. But most contractors are on a tight performance schedule and will want to work with sub's that do decent work QUICKLY. It is in the best interest of the contractor to have decent sub's, or risk having to remove and reinstall 290 sheets of sheetrock.

This said, many contractors prefer to have the building owner to perform (or sub out) speciality tasks.

One reason is the liability for product performance. Not liability for worker's comp, but liability for the product. Telephone is the classic example. Every contractor that I have worked with will want me (the building owner) to sub out the telephone cables (we hire the baby bell).

Other speciality tasks that my contractors have tried to avoid are:

security systems, intercom systems, outdoor lighting, outdoor signage, elevators and hydraulic equipment etc.


The usual excuse is the complexity of the task or equipment.


For a home audio system, the same issues apply.



Now, there is a liability issue. I can not hire my cousin bob who is a burger flipper to do my security system, unless cousin bob is a licensed yada yada yada. The contractor's liability insurance is going to limit who can be on the job site, AND the contractor want's a vendor that that they can work with.

(remember, this is THEIR building... their insurance policy, until they hand you the keys)


We did once hire a sub for the security system that was new to the contractor. Contractor liked the work (more importantly the willingness of the sub to work with the contractor's time and scheduling limits), and now has the sub listed as recommended vendor for other building owners.


Bottom line, ask the builder if you can do your own work, or hire your own contractor. I doubt they will let you do the work, but hiring your own sub may be a great relief to the builder.

 

[Palmettokid]

Thanks everyone for all the ideas and suggestions.

I spent some time yesterday with a local sound/HT designer talking about my situation. While most of their work is with custom builders he suggested that I find out what equipment the builder would be installing. He said based on what cabling they were pulling to each location, what brand of speakers were included in the HT packages, and how flexible the installation locations were that letting them do the work could be a better choice that trying to work around them or installing something after the fact.

I'm pretty sure that in their whole house prewire they just have a local volume control for each zone. If that turns out to be true then I think I'll ask them to run a cat 5 to each location for more control or just try to work something out with the construction manager.

IN the mean time I'm reading all I can about equipment so look for me in other locations in this forum.

Thanks all and see you in another thread.

 

[stiletto pat]

Palmetto Kid,

Where are you located?

Pat

 

[Palmettokid]

I'm in coastal south Crolina. you?

 

[jcsprankle]

If you're able to do the wiring yourself, of get a contractor to do it, make sure you install good quality cable. Once the cables are in the walls, you won't be able to / won't want to change it.

In my case, I took the advice of a friend and installed some non-shielded, cheap-looking speaker cable because he had it on-hand and it was free. In retrospect, that was a poor choice because I think I'm getting some interference from power cables (or whatever). As I upgrade my system, I'm going to stop using the in-wall cables and purchase good quality speaker cables. The in-wall wiring is a total waste for me. Don't make that same mistake.