Hungry DIY 4ohm's

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Haaspac

Audioholic
I just finished building my DIY towers, and I need to find a solution to power them properly. They were tested with an old denon stereo amp that had something like 200-250 wpc, but I don't know if that was rated at 8 or 4ohm. Either way I'm trying to find something to either replicate that or one-up it. It will end up being a part of a 5.1(or2) system. I'm in the middle of building the center to go along with it, and it should be done next week. The bookshelves, I have some ideas, I can either go with my EMP 41SE/B's that I already have or build myself some matching bookshelves with the same cones in my towers and center. The emp's are 8 ohm obviously and the towers and center are 4ohms, so I'm not sure if that will somehow present problems to whatever seperates/receiver I look at getting. If so then I'll just build the bookshelves and put the emp's in my office. I dunno, I have options to play with, I'm just looking for some good information to start looking in the right direction.

I was eyeballing an emotiva XPA-5 and a UMC-1 combo, but the umc doesn't have balanced outs, but I doubt that's a big deal honestly. I would like to get something really nice and classy, I put a lot of time and effort into these monster towers and I don't want to feed them with something cheap.

Idea's, thoughts, or suggestions?

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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
XPA-3 would likely one up the Denon and have an extra channel for the center. It doesn't have more power than the XPA-5, but it is distributed to fewer channels. If you need more, XPA-2.

The XMC-1 will have balanced outs, however there's no confirmation as to when that might ship.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I recommend starting with a denon 4311 to take care of surrounds and preamp duties. I consider it the best choice out there currently. The Marantz AV7005 is a good choice but lacks some key features, and the Emotiva UMC is an apparent mess.

Next you will want a 2 channel amp to drive the mains of course. The typical suspects IE ATI, Parasound, Emotiva, Crown Drivecore should all be a good choice.

If you don't mind assembling your own amp, consider strongly a pair of these or the new NC400 modules. You could put it one of the champagne chassis' listed here
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Haaspac said:
I just finished building my DIY towers, and I need to find a solution to power them properly. They were tested with an old denon stereo amp that had something like 200-250 wpc, but I don't know if that was rated at 8 or 4ohm. Either way I'm trying to find something to either replicate that or one-up it.
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I enjoyed reading about your DIY build.

Do you have a impedance vs. frequency curve for this DIY design? Usually information like that is included in the original DIY design. With that you can see just how low the impedance goes in the bass and midbass range. There are some speakers, rated at 4 ohms, that dip much lower in that range, as low as 2 ohms. These are the speakers that are really power hungry.

One of those older Denon stereo amps would be very good. I'd look for used amps, such as Rotel or NAD which might be more available at reasonable prices in Europe. A British make, Quad, is also said to be very good, but may cost more. Look for amps rated at about 200 watts at 8 ohms, and about 350 watts or higher at 4 ohms. They should be able to drive just about any speaker. In the USA, a site such as Audiogon, is good for looking for used amps, but not if you're in Europe.

Haaspac said:
I was eyeballing an emotiva XPA-5 and a UMC-1 combo, but the umc doesn't have balanced outs, but I doubt that's a big deal honestly.
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Balanced connections between a preamp and amp are very fashionable now, but not necessary at all. If you have a short connection at that point, it probably provides no benefit. Balanced connections are very important when connecting a very low voltage source, like a microphone, with a very long cable.
 
H

Haaspac

Audioholic
Swerd said:
I enjoyed reading about your DIY build.

Do you have a impedance vs. frequency curve for this DIY design? Usually information like that is included in the original DIY design. With that you can see just how low the impedance goes in the bass and midbass range. There are some speakers, rated at 4 ohms, that dip much lower in that range, as low as 2 ohms. These are the speakers that are really power hungry.
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Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Haaspac said:
No idea, my pioneer receiver is in a storage unit in indiana. ill be flying home in 3 weeks.
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Those Vistaton woofers have a good reputation. They can sound good with high powered amps, but they don't look on paper like they require them.

Take your time and search on Audiogon for a good used deal.

Other makes that are worth looking for in the used market are ATI, B&K, Parasound, Hafler, Adcom, Outlaw, and Marantz as well as Denon, NAD, Rotel, and Quad. If you limit your prices to $1 to $2 per watt (when rated at 8 ohms) you'll avoid the crazy high-priced amps.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Swerd said:
It's a bit small, but from the appearance of the impedance vs. frequency curve (its the curve near the bottom, use the vertical scale on the right), nothing dips below 4 ohms. Your speakers might be an easy load for any amp that can deliver about 125 watts per channel at 8 ohms. as long as its stable at 4 ohms.

How well does your receiver do with them?

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It looks to me like it is 3 ohm in most of the range from 100 to 200 Hz, where there are a lot of power demands. We know nothing of the phase angles, so power requirements are hard to tell.

Generally MTM three ways like that require huge amplifier power. You have to expect adverse phase angles with that arrangement.

I would plan on an amp in the 250 to 400 watts class, that can deliver those powers into at least four ohms and preferably two.
 
H

Haaspac

Audioholic
TLS Guy said:
It looks to me like it is 3 ohm in most of the range from 100 to 200 Hz, where there are a lot of power demands. We know nothing of the phase angles, so power requirements are hard to tell.

Generally MTM three ways like that require huge amplifier power. You have to expect adverse phase angles with that arrangement.

I would plan on an amp in the 250 to 400 watts class, that can deliver those powers into at least four ohms and preferably two.
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So what amp and pre/pro should be on my christmas list? I am building the center right now, same MTM cones but in a bigger box than what is sealed away in the towers. In the towers the MTM is sealed in a 5 liter cabinet, and the center I'm building is 15-20 liters, it sounds great but I think we are tweaking the crossover a little. Anyway, I might also build the bookshelves to complete the 5.0 setup and use my SVS for the .1. The bookshelves would be using the 170mm cones instead of the 130s in the towers and center, and a different tweeter, one not so expensive because they are 70 euros a pop. But if need be, then ill get the same tweeter is uniformity is a must. Everything will be 4ohms.

edit: I'm looking to buy a house(with a basement of course) and a St. Bernard after I get home, so I'm not trying to break the bank by buying a Krell if you know what I mean.
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Crown Audio XLS 2000 has more power than you'd ever need and it's perfectly stable even at 2ohm

Pre-Amp - Probably most economical way to do it is to find good AVR with pre-outs. Like Marantz 6004 - it measures as good as Pre-Pro cost 2-3 times.
 
H

Haaspac

Audioholic
BoredSysAdmin said:
Crown Audio XLS 2000 has more power than you'd ever need and it's perfectly stable even at 2ohm

Pre-Amp - Probably most economical way to do it is to find good AVR with pre-outs. Like Marantz 6004 - it measures as good as Pre-Pro cost 2-3 times.
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I just google'd that receiver and got a ton of very negative forum posts and things like that saying how it has a design fault and it is fried after 2-4 weeks. Id rather look elsewhere. Also I'm pulling the trigger on building the bookshelves, so ill have a 5.0 setup all at 4ohms, so Ill need a 5 channel 4ohm amp, or a 2 channel and a 3 channel, but I would prefer 5channel.

I watched the pod races from star wars ep. 1 at "reference volume" tonight to test out the towers and center. :eek: incredible is an understatement.

The guy I'm working with measured the in room extension of the towers and center. The towers go to 20hz! and the center (which is in a 2 and 1/2 way design crossover and sealed) goes to 40hz. We had the outer walls of his house vibrating.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Haaspac said:
I just google'd that receiver and got a ton of very negative forum posts and things like that saying how it has a design fault and it is fried after 2-4 weeks. Id rather look elsewhere. Also I'm pulling the trigger on building the bookshelves, so ill have a 5.0 setup all at 4ohms, so Ill need a 5 channel 4ohm amp, or a 2 channel and a 3 channel, but I would prefer 5channel.

I watched the pod races from star wars ep. 1 at "reference volume" tonight to test out the towers and center. :eek: incredible is an understatement.

The guy I'm working with measured the in room extension of the towers and center. The towers go to 20hz! and the center (which is in a 2 and 1/2 way design crossover and sealed) goes to 40hz. We had the outer walls of his house vibrating.
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Feed your speakers with one of these http://www.cinepro.com/Specsheets/Mk5-SeGoldCellSheet300DPI.pdf and they'll never go hungry. Plus these amps last for many years.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Haaspac said:
How much are they and where can you get one. I am wondering if this is a joke post or not, as it looks like it costs as much as a krell.
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No it's not a joke post. I purchased mine (the original)Product Review in 97. To me a poweramp is the best investment in a system, you buy a good amp and you don't have to worry about upgrading for the next 20+ years. And yes, they are right up there with the Krell, IMO even better. These amps can be abused, you can play them at max power 24/7.
 
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H

Haaspac

Audioholic
walter duque said:
No it's not a joke post. I purchased mine (the original)Product Review in 97. To me a poweramp is the best investment in a system, you buy a good amp and you don't have to worry about upgrading for the next 20+ years. And yes, they are right up there with the Krell, IMO even better. These amps can be abused, you can play them at max power 24/7.
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So I ask, again, how much is one in 2011/12 dollars, and where can I get one? You show me where I can buy one for around 1,000 and I will buy on the spot.
 
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walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Haaspac said:
So I ask, again, how much is one in 2011/12 dollars, and where can I get one? You show me where I can buy one for around 1,000 and I will buy on the spot.
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I must have missed your post where you stated that you want to spend 1k. You can pick up a pre-owned 3K6 for around $1500.-- to $1800.-- on Audiogon. The top of the line new retails for a mere $13k. This http://www.verastarr.com/amp-ssa644.php is a nice little amp too. Did I just mess up your day or what???
 
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H

Haaspac

Audioholic
walter duque said:
I must have missed your post where you stated that you want to spend 1k. You can pick up a pre-owned 3K6 for around $1500.-- to $1800.-- on Audiogon. The top of the line new retails for a mere $13k. This Verastarr Audio - SSA-644 Amplifier is a nice little amp too. Did I just mess up your day or what???
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Now after doing a little research, if I ever saw a cinepro amp for 1500 bucks I'd probably jump on it immediately. I was trying to limit myself to sub 1k for an amp since I just bought a Ducati, but I could stretch that 1k if there was something special out there at one hell of a deal. Then I would need to pair the amp with the right pre-pro after that.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Haaspac said:
Now after doing a little research, if I ever saw a cinepro amp for 1500 bucks I'd probably jump on it immediately. I was trying to limit myself to sub 1k for an amp since I just bought a Ducati, but I could stretch that 1k if there was something special out there at one hell of a deal. Then I would need to pair the amp with the right pre-pro after that.
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Check Audiogon, now and then you'll see one.
 
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