Huge difference with 10 vs 12?

[Tungsten06GT]

I tried to search for this issue but couldn't find anything clear enough for what I'm looking for. I know that people say, "a 10 will hit tighter than a 12," or "a 12 will sound a little boomier and hit a little lower than a 10," but seriously, if you have a blind listening test, what would you perceive, and, does it really matter??

The reason I'm asking is due to size constraints, I'm sort of reconsidering my thoughts on a 12 and thinking about a 10. I was considering eD, but since they're on a bit of backorder, I was thinking maybe SVS. The PB10-NSD is rated down to 20hz, while the PB12-NSD is rated to 18hz. So, all numbers aside, will the PB10 provide mostly all the same "oomph" with maybe a little less output, but still rock? I'll be using it for a 50/50 HT/Music.

Thanks!

 

[JerryLove]

There is no universal difference between 10" and 12": it entirely depends on the drivers themselves.

All else being equal: a larger driver will generally be more efficient, require a larger box for a given efficiency, and go to a lower frequency... but it's entirely possible to, for example, put an 8" JL 8W7 in a well damped sealed box with a good amp and get far better bass response than a 12" off-the-shelf from your local store.

Put simply: there's a lot more to design than the size of the driver.

Would a pair of 10" work? They would likely sound better than a single 12" (again, all else being equal).

 

[Warpdrv]

Take a moment and read the sticky's at the top of the subwoofer forum, you will find some great info on subwoofers which will help you dispel myths that are generally associated with them...

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=42

 

[Tungsten06GT]

Ah I see what you're saying.

I was looking for kind of a set it and forget it solution; best bang for my buck for about $600 (maybe more); and 1 sub if possible (2 if the enclosures are smaller).

Everyone seems to recommend SVS/eD/HSU for my price range, but I still haven't found that magic bullet yet. I'm just more confused than ever I think...

 

[Tungsten06GT]

Thanks, I have read through that before; it's a very interesting read.. I'm just having a hard time understanding all the specs and reviews vs actually hearing some setups. I really can't audition anything since there's not many audio stores around here (except for Best Buy), so I was just trying to translate specs to what I want... Sort of difficult..

 

[Warpdrv]

DIY can stretch your dollar pretty far, and can be a fun project, you could build your own sub and get more bang for the buck then what your spending on purchased products...

Check this out...
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/DS1500ci.html

 

[Tungsten06GT]

So wait, do those prices include the driver, amp, and box... I just build it???

 

[Warpdrv]

Not sure, I don't think it comes with the box...

Take a look at this thread, he got pre made boxes for that build. you can find them here...
http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=535

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60847

 

[Tungsten06GT]

I kind of think I want to avoid the DIY option. Not that I'm lazy, but I really think I can find what I'm looking for without going that route. I'm not too picky, I just want a good cross between music and HT.

 

[JerryLove]

How about a pair of Dayton 10" ($300 combined)?
If music is part of the interest and your AVR has pre-outs: consider adding an external crossover and amp (unless you also have "pre in", in which case you can skip the amp) and setup true stereo subwoofers. Put them close enough to your front L/R speakers and you've got a full-range 2-channel setup for <$600.

 

[Tungsten06GT]

What would be the difference between a pair of Dayton 10" or the SVS PB10-NSD? Two subs for 300 total vs one for 450.. is SVS just overpriced or what? I thought Dayton was of lower quality...

 

[Tungsten06GT]

I was originally considering eD's A3-300. It seemed like it should get the job done, 12", response down to 18hz. Maybe I started thinking too much about it?? ...

 

[JerryLove]

What would be the difference between a pair of Dayton 10" or the SVS PB10-NSD? Two subs for 300 total vs one for 450.. is SVS just overpriced or what? I thought Dayton was of lower quality...

No. SVS is a great brand at a great price and I highly recommend them. In my experience, two lesser subs is often better than one better sub. In a HT, dual subs often create more even bass (http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/two-subs). For music listening: I prefer full range to small+sub. Stereo (not just 2, but 2 running L/R channels with a cross-over) subs let you create virtual full range speakers.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[j_garcia]

Between those two subs specifically, you WILL notice the difference in output. Not so much in extension. I owned the PB-10 and I have heard the PB-12 on many occasions (and had a home built PB-12 Plus based sub for a while). It is pretty tough to beat SVS in that price range.

Two Dayton Sub100s will not equal a PB-10.

 

[JerryLove]

Well, if he's actually used the units involved that would trump me.

I am curious: when listening to music: what happens then the LF from the left-and-right channel start approaching 180 out-of-phase and are channeled into a single sub. I would think that would cause significant cancellation.

Specifically, as described: http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm#twosubwoofers

In a good two or three microphone stereo recording, bass information can arrive at different times at each microphone. The arrival time at each microphone can be such that at some very low frequencies the sound is 180 degrees out of phase. If you combine these frequencies into mono, the result is zero output at those frequencies. This means if you have a 32 Hz organ pedal note that has a phase difference of 180 degrees between channels, you will get nothing and feel nothing, except perhaps hear a few harmonics. I think even a deaf person can feel the difference between a 32 Hz note being present or not!

 

[Tungsten06GT]

Are there 2 lesser subs you would recommend in the total 6 to 800 price range that would yield me great quality (great for music, but also boom for HT)?

My receiver is the Pioneer 21txh, so I'm not sure if I could run stereo subs, or if it's totally necessary? Also, with dual subs and rca output, do I have to split the signal at the receiver, or can I split it at one sub so I have rca from receiver to one sub, then split, then rca to the other sub?

 

[JerryLove]

I wasn't being sarcastic when I said j_garcia's experience with the actual units should trump mine. I meant it. As he has worked with both the Daytons and SVS, I am in no position to dispute his experience that 1 SVS > 2 Daytons.

And yes, because of receiver configurations: getting true stereo subs is more of a challenge than it should be (generally requiring the use of an external crossover).

There are, according to several posters, and several audioholics articles, advantages even without stereo (though obviously my question the j_garcia is on stereo).

Based on my experience with the company, and taking at face value "normally $549", http://store.audioholics.com/product/2336/1/velodyne-impact-mini-subwoofer/1b7e4fb791b6e1ab2d61b923a551fd7e

But, honestly: I'm not in a good position to offer real comparative information between two given subwoofers in this price segment. I simply don't have the experience with them.

 

[Tungsten06GT]

I just checked the specs, and it looks like that sub is only good down to 38hz? I was kind of hoping for 20 or even sub 20 levels. Like I said, I'm not on a budget crunch and 6 to 800 dollars is ok with me..

 

[Tungsten06GT]

Also, let me mention that I have the EMP Impression 5.0 system, so the towers are rated pretty low to 40hz. I was looking for that extra oomph in my sub..

 

[JerryLove]

I just checked the specs, and it looks like that sub is only good down to 38hz? I was kind of hoping for 20 or even sub 20 levels. Like I said, I'm not on a budget crunch and 6 to 800 dollars is ok with me..

As I said: I'm not up on the particular subs in this price range... and also the SVS is a very highly regarded sub: I don't think you'll go wrong with it.

Regarding bottom frequency on any sub: Do remember that the room changes response, and do remember that response is within a tolerance (there are slopes to look at). If you haven't: go listen to subs with known specs in either real rooms or listening rooms that approximate them to make sure you know what frequencies you want.