HT Speaker advice for a recording engineer...

[admixer]

First off, by way of a hello, let's get the hate out of the way. I'm a NYC based recording engineer. I work in advertising mostly. I am wholeheartedly responsible for many of your blown speaker components. Until there are more (any!) specific rules regarding 5.1 commercial levels, I will remain unapologetic and continue to mix them l o u d. It aint pretty, but you haven't been on a phone call with an ad client wondering why their commercial wasn't as loud as the one before or after. I haven't had one of those calls in years. For a reason. Lack of dynamic range and max volume.

My work setup is based around a ProTools HD setup running 48K/24bit. I've got two mixing setups, a 5 channel Spendor with M&K subwoofer and bass management unit for TV work, and a JBL horn rig for cinematic commercials and trailer work. My studio is Dolby certified for the work I do. A Soundtracs DPCII console keeps everything routed and that's about all. The rest is done "in the box".

Here's the rub... With all the time I spend at work mixing, I've never gotten around to setting up anything on a surround basis at home. At the end of the day, my ears hurt <joke>...<sort of>. Now, I understand sound, but not for a moment do I consider myself an audiophile. The "esoterica" of sound does not interest me. That said, I do enjoy that intangible quality of "good". I've had a pair of Mission 717's at home for going on 20 years that I absolutely adore... but I'm about to give them up. Or perhaps supplant them.

I want to jump into the HT arena lightly. Very lightly. Not Logitech lightly, not tiny sat lightly, but lightly nonetheless. I want to dip a proverbial toe in.

My proverbial toe is worth (today) $1300. For all six channels. In time, if I catch the bug, I will upgrade. For now, I just need to know what my 5.1 mixes sound like at home.

The room they're going to live in is approx. 18'W x 15'D x 8'H. This room is LIVE. Windows across the TV wall and as you're facing the TV, the right side wall.

I've priced systems by Aperion, NHT, SVS, and PSB which all seem to fit my needs, but as far as I can tell, you guys are the experts in this arena, so I defer to you. Of course ultimately I'll defer to me, but for now, whatcha got?

Thanks for your time and advice I've picked up lurking here...

-Stephen

 

[zumbo]

Well, you like Mission. Here are two pages worth.
http://www.tsto.com/cgi-bin/TSTO.storefront/47044b730078e3c22740ac1003410610/Search/Display

Onkyo 605 is the budget bargain HT receiver.
http://www.onecall.com/ProductCompare.aspx?Ne=1061&N=257+1093&prodList=87018,87019

705 & 805 have pre-outs for added amplification. A few more features as you go up as well.
http://www.onecall.com/ProductCompare.aspx?N=0&Ntt=onkyo+705&D=onkyo+705&prodList=87135,87133,87018

 

[admixer]

Thanks Zumbo... you're quick!

While I do like my 717's, I'm not convinced the Mission of today are as good as the Mission of 20 years ago... and I'm curious as to the speaker flavors of today. Thanks for the links though... I'll add them to my collection.

And I forgot to mention in my previous post... I've already gotten my hands on an Onkyo 705 which (in stereo) I'm more than pleased with.

-Stephen

 

[rnatalli]

Your ear is the expert as it will tell you what you like. Get out and audition some different speakers and once you find some you like, the rest can be figured out. What kind of sound do you generally like? That'll help narrow the list a bit.

 

[admixer]

I appreciate the sentiment rnatalli, I was just hoping to lean on those with greater HT experience than mine, to point me in the right direction. While obviously, I'll be the final arbiter of my choice, I'm just looking for a gentle prod to help avoid as much repacking and reshipping as necessary.

Particularly the above mentioned brands at the above mentioned price points.

Thanks!

-Stephen

 

[zumbo]

You should be able to find some Polk RTi8's to audition locally. They are being replaced, along with the rest of the line. The speakers have a laid back silk dome tweeter, with nice tight mids. The cabinets are nice as well. The sell price at J&R is an absolute bargain.
black:
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3724397
cherry:
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3724398

surrounds
black:
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3724530
cherry:
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3724531

matching center
black:
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3726026
cherry:
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3726027

sub:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html

$1645.98 total shipped. This system will perform like you paid 3k.

 

[rnatalli]

There are so many quality speakers flying around now so it's tough. Out of the 4 brands you mentioned I've heard 2 recently. PSB and the SVS. Both are fine speakers. I feel both lean a tad on the warm side. The SVS speakers I heard played loud and clean, but they seemed less detailed than some other speakers. The PSB speakers I've heard are quite linear and balanced. Keep in mind, these are gross generalizations.

As you've had Missions for some time, how about looking at some other Brit speakers like Mordaunt-Short and Monitor Audio?

Some other good options are Axioms, Ascends, and av123. All three of these have friendly 30-day return policies so you may audition in your home. You should be able to find Polk, Boston Acoustics, Mirage, DefTech, and Klipsch at local BB and CC retail stores.

How much music vs. HT do you think you'll do? 50/50, 60/40, etc... What size room will these speakers be in?

 

[3db]

Welcome to the fold

First off, by way of a hello, let's get the hate out of the way. I'm a NYC based recording engineer. I work in advertising mostly. I am wholeheartedly responsible for many of your blown speaker components. Until there are more (any!) specific rules regarding 5.1 commercial levels, I will remain unapologetic and continue to mix them l o u d. It aint pretty, but you haven't been on a phone call with an ad client wondering why their commercial wasn't as loud as the one before or after. I haven't had one of those calls in years. For a reason. Lack of dynamic range and max volume.

My work setup is based around a ProTools HD setup running 48K/24bit. I've got two mixing setups, a 5 channel Spendor with M&K subwoofer and bass management unit for TV work, and a JBL horn rig for cinematic commercials and trailer work. My studio is Dolby certified for the work I do. A Soundtracs DPCII console keeps everything routed and that's about all. The rest is done "in the box".

Here's the rub... With all the time I spend at work mixing, I've never gotten around to setting up anything on a surround basis at home. At the end of the day, my ears hurt <joke>...<sort of>. Now, I understand sound, but not for a moment do I consider myself an audiophile. The "esoterica" of sound does not interest me. That said, I do enjoy that intangible quality of "good". I've had a pair of Mission 717's at home for going on 20 years that I absolutely adore... but I'm about to give them up. Or perhaps supplant them.

I want to jump into the HT arena lightly. Very lightly. Not Logitech lightly, not tiny sat lightly, but lightly nonetheless. I want to dip a proverbial toe in.

My proverbial toe is worth (today) $1300. For all six channels. In time, if I catch the bug, I will upgrade. For now, I just need to know what my 5.1 mixes sound like at home.

The room they're going to live in is approx. 18'W x 15'D x 8'H. This room is LIVE. Windows across the TV wall and as you're facing the TV, the right side wall.

I've priced systems by Aperion, NHT, SVS, and PSB which all seem to fit my needs, but as far as I can tell, you guys are the experts in this arena, so I defer to you. Of course ultimately I'll defer to me, but for now, whatcha got?

Thanks for your time and advice I've picked up lurking here...

-Stephen

Hmmm, Are you going to consider doing any acoustical room treatments to help dampen some of those reflective surfaces? If not, you maybe auditioning a pile of speakers to find one that best compliments your room's acoustic.

I own a complete PSB HT set consisting of the Image T45s mains, 1B (now B15) surrounds and an 8C (now c40) center channnel and a Subsonic5 10" sub. I'm very happy with my setup. They are effiecient enough that my cheap old Technics receiver can push them to play really loud. I also use the T45s to listen to 2 channel music which it does really well.

You need to audition as many as you have time for using CDs or DVDs that you're intimately familiar with. Take along a note pad and write down thinsg you notice about teh speakers, what they do well, what they don't do well, etc. This will help you narrow your choice quickly. Good luck and let us know your end result.

 

[jcPanny]

Onix X-series deals

Check out the deals from AV123 for an X-series speaker system and electronics for $1k. For $100 extra you could also upgrade the sub. This would make a very nice 5.1 system for $1100.

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=24756

 

[Tomorrow]

Welcome to the forum loud ad person.

I personally do not like the ID brands for reasons of audition...or lack thereof...before laying down some cash. What one of us may enjoy, you may think is garbage. With ID brands you'll be paying the shipping tariffs and hassle, and may dislike our suggestions ("WHAT were they thinking?! ).

Since you already are familiar with the JBL sound, I HIGHLY recommend that you stick with JBL. They have a new consumer line that is in your budget and is getting rave reviews. Better yet, you can most likely audition them at a nearby store. They are the Studio L-series. These aren't the lemmings' flavor-of-the month or boutique speakers, but they'll equal most in SQ and have great dynamics.

Here is a review of the L880's by Audioholics. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31572&highlight=studio

You can find these, the center channels and the big brother L890's on fleabay under the JBL online seller, HarmanAudio. Recently the L890's (in beech, maple, and black) have been selling in the neighborhood of $400-450/pair. Centers for <$200.

Good hunting.

 

[admixer]

From 3db
Hmmm, Are you going to consider doing any acoustical room treatments to help dampen some of those reflective surfaces? If not, you maybe auditioning a pile of speakers to find one that best compliments your room's acoustic.

Thanks for the reply 3db... The short answer on acoustical treatment is no. The SO is in charge of the decor, and enjoys the look of the LR as is. I'm fairly content to leave well enough alone on that front, as I don't expect to be taxing this system volume wise too much.

Part of my question here, which maybe I wasn't specific about was my choice of speakers in relation to the liveness of the room, and if any choice would be better than others because of that limitation.

From JCPanny
Check out the deals from AV123 for an X-series speaker system and electronics for $1k. For $100 extra you could also upgrade the sub. This would make a very nice 5.1 system for $1100.

Thanks JCP, The Onix X series seems to be well reviewed too, and should've been mentioned in my original post as an option, but thanks for the suggestion.

From Tomorrow
Since you already are familiar with the JBL sound, I HIGHLY recommend that you stick with JBL. They have a new consumer line that is in your budget and is getting rave reviews. Better yet, you can most likely audition them at a nearby store. They are the Studio L-series. These aren't the lemmings' flavor-of-the month or boutique speakers, but they'll equal most in SQ and have great dynamics.

Thank you too Tomorrow....and Today too.
While being familiar with my JBLs in a studio setting, I'm not particularly fond of their sound. I was slightly arm-twisted into them in order to acheive a Dolby certification for the room, as they're more "cinema representative".
As far as the Internet Direct mfrs... I'm more than willing to give them a fair shake as some of them seem to have rather liberal shipping/return policies. Notably Aperion Audio paying for shipping both ways if you return them. Others are liberal, maybe not to that point, but I'm willing to test the waters in order to possibly find a little more "bang for my buck".

In all, thanks for the advice all... I will continue in my Internet based research before I pull the trigger and make a demo/purchase decision. I'm the type who likes to research to death before I actually make a choice, sometimes to the point of exhaustion, so I do appreciate the input.

-Stephen

 

[zumbo]

They are banking on you not wanting to go to the trouble of sending them back. Trust me, it will be a lot of trouble. But hey, anything sounds better than nothing.

From the Zumbo dictionary.
Review: Advertisement.

If you do decide to buy ID, just buy one pair first. You will be more likely to send just one pair back. I would even go as far as testing the surrounds first. This will give you a good enough idea of the build quality, and sound quality.

 

[Tomorrow]

Thanks for the reply 3db... The short answer on acoustical treatment is no. The SO is in charge of the decor, and enjoys the look of the LR as is. I'm fairly content to leave well enough alone on that front, as I don't expect to be taxing this system volume wise too much.

Part of my question here, which maybe I wasn't specific about was my choice of speakers in relation to the liveness of the room, and if any choice would be better than others because of that limitation.



Thanks JCP, The Onix X series seems to be well reviewed too, and should've been mentioned in my original post as an option, but thanks for the suggestion.



Thank you too Tomorrow....and Today too.
While being familiar with my JBLs in a studio setting, I'm not particularly fond of their sound. I was slightly arm-twisted into them in order to acheive a Dolby certification for the room, as they're more "cinema representative".
As far as the Internet Direct mfrs... I'm more than willing to give them a fair shake as some of them seem to have rather liberal shipping/return policies. Notably Aperion Audio paying for shipping both ways if you return them. Others are liberal, maybe not to that point, but I'm willing to test the waters in order to possibly find a little more "bang for my buck".

In all, thanks for the advice all... I will continue in my Internet based research before I pull the trigger and make a demo/purchase decision. I'm the type who likes to research to death before I actually make a choice, sometimes to the point of exhaustion, so I do appreciate the input.

-Stephen

Hi again, Stephen. You seem to be taking a measured and sane approach to your loudspeaker research. Good for you.

I'll make just one more comment regarding ID speakers and the notion of Bang-for-the-Buck. The issue is not fully agreed upon here or in other forums as to whether you get more for your money with ID brands. Again, it's just my bias, but I've spent more than enough money and energy returning speakers that I didn't like to ID companies. And don't forget (other than Aperion free shipping both ways, and a few others one way) to factor the shipping into your costs. Auditioning is everything. I agree that auditioning in one's home is ideal, but narrowing the search at B&M stores is the way I've chosen to go.

I'd suggest to you that you audition speakers in B&M stores near you. Get an idea of the presentation you enjoy from speakers you find, and then we can advise you of similar ID equipment that may offer a better price. For us to just make blind suggestions to you really will be nonproductive for you. There are tons of brands/models out there in speaker-land, all with different specs and sounds.

In any event, the real thrill is in the chase!

 

[3db]

well out of the initial list, PSB is probally the warmest (not bright)

Thanks for the reply 3db... The short answer on acoustical treatment is no. The SO is in charge of the decor, and enjoys the look of the LR as is. I'm fairly content to leave well enough alone on that front, as I don't expect to be taxing this system volume wise too much.

Part of my question here, which maybe I wasn't specific about was my choice of speakers in relation to the liveness of the room, and if any choice would be better than others because of that limitation.



Thanks JCP, The Onix X series seems to be well reviewed too, and should've been mentioned in my original post as an option, but thanks for the suggestion.



Thank you too Tomorrow....and Today too.
While being familiar with my JBLs in a studio setting, I'm not particularly fond of their sound. I was slightly arm-twisted into them in order to acheive a Dolby certification for the room, as they're more "cinema representative".
As far as the Internet Direct mfrs... I'm more than willing to give them a fair shake as some of them seem to have rather liberal shipping/return policies. Notably Aperion Audio paying for shipping both ways if you return them. Others are liberal, maybe not to that point, but I'm willing to test the waters in order to possibly find a little more "bang for my buck".

In all, thanks for the advice all... I will continue in my Internet based research before I pull the trigger and make a demo/purchase decision. I'm the type who likes to research to death before I actually make a choice, sometimes to the point of exhaustion, so I do appreciate the input.

-Stephen

out of that group. I shy away from brigt speakers because I get fatigued easily by them. I can honestly say that PSB's sound is inviting. It causes me to slow down and just listen, letting me forget whats on my to do list.

Like I said, you need to go out equipped with CDs, DVDs, paper, and a pen amd just listening. You may not like the sound of PSB like I do. Just don't make a mistake by purchasing on recommendation without hearing for yourself. Good luck

 

[jostenmeat]

(hey Tomorrow, I like your sig)

admixer... can I kill your boss for you?

yet another suggestion from the impossibly large myriad of choices:
4x Monitor Audio B4 towers + matching center is going for $890. Won't be too easy to beat. Possibly impossible . All A-stock, NIB, from Saturday Audio. The B4 is recently superceded by the B5 which, iirc, has smaller drivers?

I like PSB Images too. While I find the MA warmer, and perhaps a bit more musical, the PSBs should kill the MA's as far as HT performance, or specifically, dynamic range and the ability to crank. The problem is.... the line will blow your budget.

 

[jostenmeat]

I am sorry, I misquoted. The combo is $980. This isn't the first place I misquoted either . Maybe I am dyslexic... still a great deal imo

 

[rnatalli]

They are banking on you not wanting to go to the trouble of sending them back. Trust me, it will be a lot of trouble. But hey, anything sounds better than nothing.

From the Zumbo dictionary.
Review: Advertisement.

If you do decide to buy ID, just buy one pair first. You will be more likely to send just one pair back. I would even go as far as testing the surrounds first. This will give you a good enough idea of the build quality, and sound quality.

I don't think it was a lot of trouble for the ones I've bought. Granted, buying speakers locally and returning is a bit easier, but it's almost as easy to box them up and head to the post office instead of a retail store. The ID companies respond within 48 hours with a return number and give you no hassle. I agree that you should try a pair first to keep the shipping costs down in case you do have to return them.

With that said, I haven't seen any real advantage to ID companies over traditional companies except that maybe the ID companies have forced the prices down. Although, some of traditional chains are often cheaper due to overstock and clearances. So the argument that cutting out all the middle-mean doesn't always fly. However, take the ID companies away, and those traditionals will squeeze you dry. Simply supply and demand.

 

[zumbo]

I don't think it was a lot of trouble for the ones I've bought. Granted, buying speakers locally and returning is a bit easier, but it's almost as easy to box them up and head to the post office instead of a retail store. The ID companies respond within 48 hours with a return number and give you no hassle. I agree that you should try a pair first to keep the shipping costs down in case you do have to return them.

Well, my 5.1 package was pretty heavy. So heavy in fact, the Fed Ex driver left them on my front porch with no one home. Yes, it's the truth. I wasn't mad though, I was happy to get my speakers. I purchased mine without hearing, but I had used the brand for over ten years, and was very pleased with their products. Extremely pleased with them when I got them. The cool thing is, no one I know has them. And everyone is blown away. That's not saying much, as I am the audio nut among my friends and neighbors.

With that said, I haven't seen any real advantage to ID companies over traditional companies except that maybe the ID companies have forced the prices down. Although, some of traditional chains are often cheaper due to overstock and clearances. So the argument that cutting out all the middle-mean doesn't always fly. However, take the ID companies away, and those traditionals will squeeze you dry. Simply supply and demand.

I agree.

I do enjoy the tax free deal online. Even so, you can get most of the B&M brands the same way.

 

[admixer]

Thanks!

Just wanted to thank everyone for the tips....

I'll be making a decision within the next two weeks, after some auditioning and obsession a bit more. I'll definitely report back.

-Stephen