how would you bi-wire the betas?

[ndangrd]

i'm setting up my new little theater. i've decided to bi-wire five of my betas (see sig) so i can still use my h/k pa5800 (80W x 5 with 73 amps of high current!!!). should i use the pioneer 1015 for the high pass or low pass & likewise for the 5800? i experimented with both combinations & subjectively compared the sound quality to the 1015 alone & got some SPL readings as well. i've never bi-wired any speakers before so i don't know the pro's & con's associated with it...

 

[mtrycrafts]

i'm setting up my new little theater. i've decided to bi-wire five of my betas (see sig) so i can still use my h/k pa5800 (80W x 5 with 73 amps of high current!!!). should i use the pioneer 1015 for the high pass or low pass & likewise for the 5800? i experimented with both combinations & subjectively compared the sound quality to the 1015 alone & got some SPL readings as well. i've never bi-wired any speakers before so i don't know the pro's & con's associated with it...

Well, I hate to disappoint you, but that hk will not output 73A of current. That would be 5300+ watts of power if you had a 1 ohm load. Much more with 8 ohms You think that will happen?

Now that that is out of the way, Just use the bigger amp on the speakers, if you must and forget bi-amping.

 

[ndangrd]

Well, I hate to disappoint you, but that hk will not output 73A of current. That would be 5300+ watts of power if you had a 1 ohm load. Much more with 8 ohms You think that will happen?

Now that that is out of the way, Just use the bigger amp on the speakers, if you must and forget bi-amping.

it has 73 amps of "high instantaneous current capability"
http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?cat=PPT&ser=&prod=PA5800BLK&sType=H

what's wrong with bi-wiring the betas since they have that capability & i have two amps?

 

[PENG]

it has 73 amps of "high instantaneous current capability"
http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?cat=PPT&ser=&prod=PA5800BLK&sType=H

what's wrong with bi-wiring the betas since they have that capability & i have two amps?

Probably nothing wrong. I bi-wire mine. I cannot hear any difference, but you may. Try and find out for yourself.

As long as you remove the links on your speakers, the internal crossover network will be separated into basically a low pass and a high pass filter, hence offering different impedance characteristics to the two pair of wires. One pair will carry mainly mid to high frequencies and the other will carry mainly the low frequencies. People may tell you otherwise, but ohm's law (I=V/Z) does apply in this case. You should not have to do anything with you 1015.

I think mtycrafts thought you were talking about bi-amping. If you bi-amp, then the best way is go with active bi-amping. In that case you would have to defeat the speakers internal crossovers. I have not tried bi-amping, but read a lot about it.

 

[ndangrd]

like i said earlier, i bi-wired the betas both ways, once with the 1015 hp & 5800 lp & vice versa. from past experiences with the 5800, i had a feeling that they would be louder when the 5800 was on the lp knowing the bass sucks more power...& i was correct. with the 1015 on hp & the 5800 lp, the overall SPL was on average 1-2 db's higher at the same volume level on the 1015 according to my SPL meter. however, with the 1015 on hp, there was more distortion from the highs when i turned it up. i then tried it with the 5800 on hp. although it was 1-2 db's quieter at the same volume level due to the 1015 not having as much power to push the bass out, it was also noticeably cleaner when i turned it up. i couldn't really tell a difference in sound quality at lower volumes, but obviously at higher SPL's (around 110 db's), it did sound better with the 5800 on hp due to the higher distortion of the 1015 when it was on hp. i'm thinking that when i get a good powered sub, it would be best to utilize the 5800 on hp & give up some db's...assuming the powered sub would more than make up the difference with solid bass, thus giving me higher SPL capability in the end since it doesn't distort as easily. after doing all of this, i know understand why it's recommended to use 2 of the same amps to bi-wire speakers!

i have to figure out if the additional cost of speaker wires & banana plugs is going to be worth it. btw, i didn't get a chance to test the 1015 or 5800 separately...i guess i just assumed it would be louder with the betas bi-wired so i didn't even bother...

 

[AVRat]

What you are doing is passive bi-amping NOT bi-wiring. Bi-wiring is using two wires out of the same amp. Since you're not quiite doubling your power capability, you should only see an additional 2dB increase in output.

 

[ndangrd]

i was just following my owner's manual. it made no mention of bi-amping. so, if i am passively bi-amping, then it doesn't sound like it's going to be worth the additional cost of good wires & plug for the 5 speakers i was going to "bi-amp" for only 2db's.

so, i probably be better off just using the 5800 for 5 channels & the 1015 for the surround rears. do you agree with that?

 

[PENG]

i was just following my owner's manual. it made no mention of bi-amping. so, if i am passively bi-amping, then it doesn't sound like it's going to be worth the additional cost of good wires & plug for the 5 speakers i was going to "bi-amp" for only 2db's.

so, i probably be better off just using the 5800 for 5 channels & the 1015 for the surround rears. do you agree with that?

If I understand correctly,

1) You are passively bi-amping with 2 different amplifiers, making it difficult to achieve proper balance between the LF and M/HF.

2) You seem to be using both the amps LP/HP filters as well as the Beta's internal crossover networks (filters). That's not good.

I agree you are better off using the 5800 for 5 ch and the 1015 for the surround rears. Or better still, use the 5800 for the front 3 channels only. The 1015 should have no problem powering the surround channels.
You can still bi-wire if you wish to try, just follow page 7 Fig 9 in the Owner's manual. Fig. 10 is really bi-amp but you are right the Owner's manual groups both configuration under the section "Bi-Wire".

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think mtycrafts thought you were talking about bi-amping. If you bi-amp, then the best way is go with active bi-amping. In that case you would have to defeat the speakers internal crossovers. I have not tried bi-amping, but read a lot about it.

Hi did write this:
should i use the pioneer 1015 for the high pass or low pass & likewise for the 5800?

So it seemed to me that is what we was planning on

 

[ndangrd]

probelm solved...well, most of them anyway...

i just returned the 1015 & got a new hk 240. i've noticed a little audio delay on my 57" mitsu & the 1015 didn't have an audio sync feature. i'll just hook up the 5800 now & use the 240 as a preamp.

thanx for all the help...it's difficult to get clear answers on the bi-wiring. none of the sales people i talked to tonight at ultimate, circuit city, or best buy had an answer...imagine that

 

[mtrycrafts]

it has 73 amps of "high instantaneous current capability"
http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?cat=PPT&ser=&prod=PA5800BLK&sType=H

Yes, that is what they say. You really think that it would instantly put out 5300 watts of power? And that is with a 1 ohm load?
With an 8 ohm load, you are looking at 40,000 watts minus the phase issues losses.
I don't have to think too hard on this problem. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Yes, that is what they say. You really think that it would instantly put out 5300 watts of power? And that is with a 1 ohm load?
With an 8 ohm load, you are looking at 40,000 watts minus the phase issues losses.
I don't have to think too hard on this problem. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

I think I drew that much out 10 minutes ago when the wife was running the Hoover steam vac, and I was following her with my 16 gallon shop vac. Man, the whole downstairs went black - except for my PC. The Belkin battery backup/surge protector went into action and the PC never missed a beat. The LCD was our only source of light, and I still had internet. I'm pumped that Belkin performed they way it did.

A guy was debating with me yesterday that his HTIB Onkyo receiver was draining more electricity than a 100 watt light bulb. He soon lost that discussion. He claimed to be an electrical engineer.

 

[PENG]

Hi did write this:
should i use the pioneer 1015 for the high pass or low pass & likewise for the 5800?

So it seemed to me that is what we was planning on

You're right, he was actually bi-amping.

 

[PENG]

Yes, that is what they say. You really think that it would instantly put out 5300 watts of power? And that is with a 1 ohm load?
With an 8 ohm load, you are looking at 40,000 watts minus the phase issues losses.
I don't have to think too hard on this problem. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Don't forget HK plays the all channel game. So if you divide that 73 inst amp into 7 channels, each channel would deliver 10.429A "instantaneous".

Let's say during a split second (instantaneous moment), each speaker's impedance drop to 2.5 ohms, total inst power=7*10.429*10.429*2.5=1,903.2 Watts assuming the loads are purely resistive. If that split second is say 0.01 second or less, the energy dissipated at that instantaneous moment will be only 19 Joules or less. That is entirely possible given that HK typically have beefy power supplies. From the power supply stand point, you cannot just look at power if that power supply has the ability to store energy.

 

[PENG]

A guy was debating with me yesterday that his HTIB Onkyo receiver was draining more electricity than a 100 watt light bulb. He soon lost that discussion. He claimed to be an electrical engineer.

On instantaneous basis, that may be possible. May be that's why he claimed to be an E.E.

 

[PENG]

probelm solved...well, most of them anyway...

i just returned the 1015 & got a new hk 240. i've noticed a little audio delay on my 57" mitsu & the 1015 didn't have an audio sync feature. i'll just hook up the 5800 now & use the 240 as a preamp.

thanx for all the help...it's difficult to get clear answers on the bi-wiring. none of the sales people i talked to tonight at ultimate, circuit city, or best buy had an answer...imagine that

The 240 has the latest features but even less powerful than the 1015. At 24 lbs it is light by HK standard too. You really should use it for the surround channels only, and let the 5800 take care of the front 3 channels to get you superior performance, especially in two channel music materials.

Again on the bi-wire thing, it was clearly layout in the instruction manual of your speakers. If I remember correctly, Fig. 9 for bi-wire, Fig. 10 for passive horizontal bi-amp, though they group both together and put the instructions under the section titled Bi-wire, no mentioning of bi-amp as you previously reported.

 

[mtrycrafts]

He claimed to be an electrical engineer.

Yes, another claim. Or, perhaps he needs to get a refund on what he thought he learned?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Don't forget HK plays the all channel game. So if you divide that 73 inst amp into 7 channels, each channel would deliver 10.429A "instantaneous".

Let's say during a split second (instantaneous moment), each speaker's impedance drop to 2.5 ohms, total inst power=7*10.429*10.429*2.5=1,903.2 Watts assuming the loads are purely resistive. If that split second is say 0.01 second or less, the energy dissipated at that instantaneous moment will be only 19 Joules or less. That is entirely possible given that HK typically have beefy power supplies. From the power supply stand point, you cannot just look at power if that power supply has the ability to store energy.

OK. I made the mistake of squaring the 73 amp instead of the individual channels draw. That is more likely then. Thanks. Hard to see the trees from the forest at times

 

[PENG]

mtry, I found this interesting article:

http://www.meyersound.com/support/papers/amp_power.htm

From the second last paragraph:

"Meyer Sound refers to the average power during this 500 milliseconds as“true burst power.” Peak power output should last at least 100 milliseconds in order to be useful for music reproduction."

Given that the limited space in a receiver including HK's, I doubt there will be enough capacitors in them to sustain 500, or even 100 msec of those claimed high instantaneous currents. Whether it is 10, 50msec or longer, I don't know, may be someone should ask them.

 

[sivadselim]

To the original poster:

You DO realize that you were talking about bi-amping, not bi-wiring, correct?