How to get that "live" sound

[Gideon]

Why do songs sound so much better on the radio? Is it simply a matter of raw power? In some cases I am amazed how the same song can sound so bad when I play it on a CD (i.e. the higher frequencies are too loud and seem very 2-dimensional). Does it have anything to do with the CD itself, or aren't these basically the same disks that are used by the radio stations?

I do understand that radio stations tend to have thousands and thousands of watts streaming through them. If it is just an issue of wattage, are there any affordable ways to add some life to my CDs?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Why do songs sound so much better on the radio? Is it simply a matter of raw power? In some cases I am amazed how the same song can sound so bad when I play it on a CD (i.e. the higher frequencies are too loud and seem very 2-dimensional). Does it have anything to do with the CD itself, or aren't these basically the same disks that are used by the radio stations?

I do understand that radio stations tend to have thousands and thousands of watts streaming through them. If it is just an issue of wattage, are there any affordable ways to add some life to my CDs?

It's simply added distortion. Slight distortion gives music a little more depth. This is precisely the huge debate over tube amps versus solid state.

The highs you are hearing with a cd are the result of dynamics. When you drop distortion, you have a lower sound floor. That means individual notes stand out. When there is distortion in the mix, there are less dynamics. Try turning down the treble when listening to cd's.

What equipment are you running?

 

[MDS]

This is the first time I've ever heard anybody say that FM radio sounds better than a CD.

In addition to what BuckeyeFan said, you have to remember that radio stations use extreme compression to make the level of all songs sound about the same. That is why a station that plays a wide variety of music, like Bob FM here in Austin, does not exhibit a large variation in loudness when the song goes from something light like an 80s pop hit to Metallica.

If you are used to hearing 'one loudness fits all' music then you will find the dynamics of a well recorded CD to be a lot different and possibly unsettling. In reality, the CD is 'better' and the FM is the one with the problem.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Interesting thread. I heard a story on the radio the other day regarding compression and so called "remastered" CD's. The remastering of a CD simply boosts volumes and the distortion levels and compression is a factor as well with these. I really notice it on my Ipod. Let's say a CD that I had before, like say Tragically Hip "Up To Here", that came out in the mid 90's, is re-released or in a new Greatest Hits package. It is louder now and may fool you into thinking it's better, but really, it just distorts at higher volumes and the treble is way too much.

Some CD's sound so good, like for example, Michael Buble recordings, and others sound like crap. Why can't labels pay more attention to this? It's like all music today. Mass produced, quality is not important. If it was, we would have more SACD or DVD Audio and less downloaded MP3's.

I also think there is something to do with Digital vs. Analog but I am not really educated enough to comment. All I know is my records don't sound like this, or when I listen to CD's in analog, they sound less distorted.

JC

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I wonder if Gideon is of this new Ipod generation, mainly listening to music via pc and portable audio. If so, he may be used to increased recording levels, higher distortion, and your typical compressed mp3 media. It is rather surprising he mentioned radio in comparison to cd's, as opposed to mp3. Hopefully he'll stop by and let us know.

 

[Gideon]

I actually have made disks from iTunes, but I still find the same problems with MP3's as I do with CDs. Granted, in both cases there are exceptions, but the majority of songs seem to suffer from an imbalance with respect to frequency levels (i.e. drums and cymbals are clanky and loud, while the other instruments are barely audible at times). In addition, the songs sound flat to me when compared to what I hear on the radio. I have to believe the sheer wattage of radio stations has much to do with this "live" and "three-dimensional" quality. Stations with less power seem to have less of these qualities.

To answer an earlier question, I use an old trustworthy Pioneer 100w/channel receiver along with AKG K-240M headphones. I tend to do most of my listening through the headphones, and when the radio is on I always feel like I'm in the presence of a live performance. When the CDs are started I feel like I'm listening to a recording of a recording of a recording, etc. I understand this is precisely what CDs are, but why do they have to sound like it?

I guess I'm going to have to start transmitting my CDs through my own radio station and listen to them on the tuner. I just don't know if I can afford a 50,000-watt amplifier

 

[markw]

Interesting...

You do realize that most radio stations use the same CD's you use. They just run 'em thru stage upon stage of sound altering compression, phasing and other various devices that change the sound so it cuts thru background noise.

Now, while you may "prefer" this type of sound, don't even think that it, in any way whatsoever, emulates live, unless stadium rock is your yardstick.

Methinmks yo ushould do some live listening to as minimaly amplified music as you can find. You may find that those nasty CD's ain't as bad as you seem to think.

 

[Gideon]

Thanks for all of the responses, guys.

I guess it's the "stage upon stage of sound altering compression, phasing and other various devices" that I'm missing in my CDs. As far as comparing it to live music, I admit that was a bit of a stretch. I guess I could just say that FM music appears to have much more "life" to it than the CDs I hear through my vintage Pioneer VSX-402.

Is there anyone else out there who favors the FM sound over CDs played on a home receiver? MDS says he has never heard anyone voice such an opinion. I can't be the only one, can I?

P.S. I just found something called an FM processor:

http://www.orban.com/products/radio/fm/8500/

"The 8500 provides stereo enhancement, equalization, AGC, multiband compression, low-IM peak limiting, stereo encoding, and composite limiting—everything that even the most competitive major market station needs to stand out on the dial."

There's the compression you guys were talking about, along with a list of other stuff.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It's simply added distortion. Slight distortion gives music a little more depth. This is precisely the huge debate over tube amps versus solid state.

Phase shifting does wonders too. There are a number of test CDs that can move the source all around the room with plenty of phase shifting and a bit of delayed echo, wow, like a huge hall.
The magic of audio.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Gideon: I have to believe the sheer wattage of radio stations has much to do with this "live" and "three-dimensional" quality. Stations with less power seem to have less of these qualities.

That wouldn't have anything to do with it. You are simply getting a stronger signal. You could put up a mast antenna along side the house. The reception might be perfect for all stations. What you are hearing is based on how the stations compress, eq, and process the sound, as well as the actual quality of the cd/mp3 they are playing.

I guess I could just say that FM music appears to have much more "life" to it than the CDs I hear through my vintage Pioneer VSX-402.

That may be an issue with your "aux" input on the Pioneer, versus the FM tuner. I bet if you experimented with a newer avr, you wouldn't hear that depth in FM stations. I know what you are talking about with older Pioneer receivers, and anything I pumped through mine had that "deep, tube style" sound.

 

[audioman]

Fm Vs. Cd's

GIDIEON! I have good news for you regarding economical but very effective tweaks you can do to make your cd, tapes, vinyl and fm sound better than your preferred fm only view.

Many of the threadsters here are not answering alternatives or solutions to your problem.

I am normally on the high end group at ecoustic which has much more technical gurus than i on internal electronics, but when it comes to tweaking, that is my expertise. I am former high end home theater and audio installer.

There are inexpensive tweaks you can do to enhance your system.
You can get a carver sonic holography or hologram, most are built in on carver preamps but the H-9 or H-9AV can often be sold at ebay. That was made in the early 80's thru the early 90's. The original holographic processors was by omnisonix called omnisonic imagers which was made in 1978 and even made car models back in 1982.
The other inexpensive but newer sound processor is called an ACOUSTIC RESEARCH TDS-202 which was made in 1998 and did retail for $119, but you can get it at amazon.com for less than $60, usually under that. At ebay is the best place to get it, it is as low as $20 and no more than $40. It is completely passive and requires no electrical power supply to run it.
What is does is create psycho acoustic response by amplifying mixed signals that are lossed in the recording process and amplifying it in the mix. You will hear loss signals that's not normally processed thru conventional amplifier/speaker set up even with an equalizer which only alters the frequency. Sound processors are the way to go if you want to bring out all the instruments and recording in your music. Like anything, else you have to make adjustments to your your tone controls and equalizers if you have one connected to the loop. I do not recommend any reverbs that was so poplular in the 80's, as they are only generally used for preproduction and not post production or playback music.
The other tweak that will compliment any sound processors from enhancers to expanders or better known as range controllers or compressors such dbx 3bx series 3 or DS, for digital, or behringer, alesis brands, is called
a DAKIOM FEEDBACK STABILIZER at www.dakiom.com this is an amazing product that is like a water filter in the audio world. it cleans up current going thru your system. It makes an instrument sound livelier. When this product is coupled with any of the enhancers mentioned, it creates the 3 dimensional pscyho acoustic effect that you are looking for in a live sound!
I have been experimenting with many processors since 1979. I have helped many others on this issue and they thanked me later even the high end millionaire i came across who simply just wanted to make his very expensive system sound a certain way that none of the high end sales folks could answer but trick him into just buying more unwanted expensive gear and cables. I told him about the inexpensive dakiom and acoustic research combo, he later emailed me and thanks me endlessly. I could have wished he would have just hired me on his company he owned....kidding...wishful thinking.

If you want to spend more on sound processors, here's a list of companies that make awesome sound enhancers:

BBE SONIC MAXIMIZER 362 SW, this can be used for stereo, dj applications, home theater etc...and professinal use

PEAVEY kosmos, they have an awesome subwoofer subharmonic enhancer.
APHEX AUREL EXCITER, this one is primarily a dj/professional processor used to multiply your subwoofer as if you have several installed, cleans up the low frequencies, you can however use it for home but using 1/4 inch plug to RCA adapters you can get at any dj store or radio shack.

SRSLABS have what they call circle sound found in kenwood and marantz receivers. I am not sure whether you can get one of their separate
sound processor called srs pro 220 spatial enhancer which was made in the late 90's...you might find it in ebay... or you can get one of their W.O.W ipod or pc cards used for enhancements...they are plug ins... they can be purchased thru SRSLABS.....www.srslabs.com great company!
If you want an example for free their technologoy....download MSN MEDIA PLAYER from microsoft....and the media player contains the SRS sound processor on control pad after the equalizer controls....it creates a big difference with the equalizer and srs w.o.w connected or turned on....

there are other companies like BSR and HUGHES that emulated these sound processing companies, but each company has their own patent.

BEHRINGER is another company that makes good sound processors...
high end audiophiles use their digital equalizers for their tube set up...

I HOPE THIS HELPS ALL OF YOU who are looking to enhance your listening experience without spending thousands on your gear!

 

[Johnny Canuck]

wow ...nice first post Audioman!.

The sound on FM is nowhere near, for the most part, the sound of a CD, IMO. What I do notice though is all songs on the radio are the same volume, same bass, same treble. I think the radio stations must take a song from a CD and EQ it to a certain level. Then they save it to a digital source of some kind, like they did with tapes before. They also edit out the swearing not allowed on radio stations. Then they use this for airplay. I can't see them having a guy there all the time who has to manually EQ a song before they play it every time.

JC

 

[Nick250]

I think they have some sort of hardware/software that automatically EQs all the music.

 

[JeffD2.]

Not mentioned here is that the studios release FM mixes just for radio play.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Thanks for all of the responses, guys.

I guess it's the "stage upon stage of sound altering compression, phasing and other various devices" that I'm missing in my CDs. As far as comparing it to live music, I admit that was a bit of a stretch. I guess I could just say that FM music appears to have much more "life" to it than the CDs I hear through my vintage Pioneer VSX-402.

Is there anyone else out there who favors the FM sound over CDs played on a home receiver? MDS says he has never heard anyone voice such an opinion. I can't be the only one, can I?

P.S. I just found something called an FM processor:

http://www.orban.com/products/radio/fm/8500/

"The 8500 provides stereo enhancement, equalization, AGC, multiband compression, low-IM peak limiting, stereo encoding, and composite limiting—everything that even the most competitive major market station needs to stand out on the dial."

There's the compression you guys were talking about, along with a list of other stuff.

Hi Gideon,

I know what you mean to a point. I prefer cd sound but there has been occasions when I prefer a certain song processed to FM standards. It happens when the recording quality of the cd is so bad that the radio station prossesing dulls the harshness. It still doesn't sound great but at least it's not shrill.

Take a few cds that have songs that you think sound better on the radio and go to a a/v store and play with the DSP modes of a home theater receiver, you may find what you are looking for. Most have DSP modes that change the sound, by eq/commperession etc., so it sounds like your in a hall or stadium or even specific venues. They will even let you customize the amount of the different effects to your preference, then name it and save it.

Remember it's all about what you like!
SBF1

p.s. Yes I think you are the only one.

 

[JeffD2.]

Audioman, LMFAO!

 

[Gideon]

Wow...I've certainly gotten an encyclopedia worth of feedback on this. Thanks again. As I was listening to the radio in my car today I was once again thinking how "balanced" the songs were. There just seemed to be more strength behind them. I will eventually have to try out one of those processors or stabilizers.

With regards to my Pioneer receiver, it is 12 years old. I wasn't sure if that was considered vintage. It is black and has the amber LCD display. Here is an image of the same model:

 

[Gideon]

I found the "live" radio sound by using something called "Volume Logic for iTunes 1.3". It's a simple add-on for Apple iTunes that balances and compresses the music (for lack of a more technical description). It achieves the FM sound quality I was seeking. It's free for 30 days and costs around $19.99 for a license.

Now, I just need to find a good way to amplify the sound coming from that miniscule audio output on the back of the computer. Still sounds quite good regardless.

 

[MDS]

Yep, it achieves the 'everything is the same loudness' you were striving for.