How important is timbre matching - really?

[KDub]

Hi All,

I've got new Klipsch Reference fronts, center and 2 surrounds connected to a Denon 3806 receiver. All is well except for the surrounds. The problem is not the speakers, it's that I've got beautiful, picture-frame paneling throughout my living room and do not want to do what is necessary to mount them on the wall.
I bought the speaker package from a dealer going out of business at a deep discount knowing I might not use the surrounds for now. So, here's the deal. I'd like to use in-ceiling speakers for the surrounds but don't want to spend $$$ for them. Personally, I see the surrounds as having a supporting role and not really needing to be perfectly matched to the fronts. Am I off base here or is this an ear thing that is purely personal? I have to do some auditioning but Polk seems to have some decent in-ceiling designs. Thoughts anyone?

 

[Hi Ho]

I use some old Realistic Minimus-7's (RadioShack) as surrounds with old Advents up front. It sounds fine. Timbre matching front to back isn't as important as the front three. Though I have a Polk center, which doesn't exactly match the Advents, and it really doesn't sound half bad.

 

[silversurfer]

Until you experience a fully timbre matched system, you will not be able to appreciate it.

With surrounds being more and more important, especially in action and sci-fi movies, timbre matched surrounds also will gain in importance.

That said, if you are happy with the sound, then that is all that matters.

 

[Blundaar]

My daddy tought me to timbre match before I could even walk!

 

[fergusonv]

IMHO it is very important.

 

[markw]

It's all mind over matter.

If you don't mind the mismatch it doesn't matter.

Seriously, for movies the front/rear mismatch is not the end of the world. The surroundsare used only occasionaly and, even then, generally for non-essential sounds such as ambiance clues and sound effects.

For music, however, they can take on a much more importan trole, depending on the intent of the artists and engineers involved in the project.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Use them for now...

...until your budget or tastes change. I used unmatched speakers and honestly didn't immediately notice much of a difference when I added matched surrounds. However, after a while when I put the unmatched speakers back in (I was going to use the better quality speakers in my bedroom) I noticed a huge difference and decided to keep the matched speakers as surrounds.

Once you are used to a matched setup you'll most likely not like the sound of the unmatched system. If you haven't been listening to a matched setup, it won't yet matter to you and you'll be happy for now.

 

[Geno]

I had a similar experience to JackHammer...I had a matched set up front, with totallly different rears, and thought it sounded pretty decent. After putting in the matching side surrounds, I must say there was quite a nice change in the effect. Much more "immersive", probably because the individual speakers aren't localizable because of the timbre matching.

 

[Sheep]

The front and rear sound Fields don't have to match, but the speakers in the front and rear sound fields should match each other. If all your speakers were different but had similar FR's and distortion readings and whatnot, you could use those, as long as they have the same sound.

Another thing you could do is look for speakers that have a similar sound to yours and use them. Bright with bright etc etc.

SheepStar

 

[hifiman]

Years ago I recall reading in every publication that Timbre matching was absolutely critical. In recent years it seems the pendulum has swung the other way. I've seen many articles in traditional magazines that have said Timbre matching is not as critical. I do think I agree though I'm sure most people on this forum would disagree with me, and to tell the truth I feel no need to defend my position to others. I will say that from my own experience I have owned several different matched sets of home theater speakers over the years. To my ears none of these systems ever had all 5 speakers perfectly match. Two of these systems (one was embarassingly cheap since this was my first purchase, the other was a THX certified system) had LCRs for the front three channels. The pink noise used for calibration always brought a different sound from each speaker because of placement variations. The cheapest of the two had the exact same speaker for all 5 channels. The surrounds were mounted to the side and up high on the wall. Of course this location by default sounded much different than the fronts. The THX system had small surrounds that had different drivers from the fronts. That, coupled with a smaller enclosure and placement on the wall ensured they were never going to match perfectly.

My two most recent systems had two towers, one smaller center lying on its side and surrounds in enclosures much smaller and shaped very differently from the rest. Both of these were matched systems, but again, due to placement variations, enclosure size, design variations, and driver complement, none of these speakers sound exactly the same. Though when I played movies or music I rarely noticed any issues, except from the surrounds.

I'm not saying that timbre matching doesn't matter to the point where someone could buy 5 different speakers, but I don't think it's ultra critical.

 

[shokhead]

Hi All,

I've got new Klipsch Reference fronts, center and 2 surrounds connected to a Denon 3806 receiver. All is well except for the surrounds. The problem is not the speakers, it's that I've got beautiful, picture-frame paneling throughout my living room and do not want to do what is necessary to mount them on the wall.
I bought the speaker package from a dealer going out of business at a deep discount knowing I might not use the surrounds for now. So, here's the deal. I'd like to use in-ceiling speakers for the surrounds but don't want to spend $$$ for them. Personally, I see the surrounds as having a supporting role and not really needing to be perfectly matched to the fronts. Am I off base here or is this an ear thing that is purely personal? I have to do some auditioning but Polk seems to have some decent in-ceiling designs. Thoughts anyone?

When timbre matching is talked about,its mostle the 3 front speakers. If you can match the surrounds,even better but not as much noticed as it is with the 3 fronts.

 

[AudioSeer]

Timbre matching is crucial for the front 3 channels.

Timbre matching the surrounds (for movies) is not nearly as important. The timbre from a speaker will change by a good amount as you move it around a room anyways.

 

[westcott]

Speaker timbre is considered by most to be the most critical considerations in speaker design.

Here is a quote from an interview of Revel by "Secrets of Home Theater" that will help explain timbre because it is not well understood and is a hard concept to explain. This is what I consider a very good laymans explanation.

"Sumit:.......... When designing a loudspeaker what are the three most important aspects of a loudspeaker according to you that one must get right?

Kevin: Timbre is the overwhelming aspect. Based on our blind listening tests timbre is the thing that differentiates between good and bad loudspeakers, but also between good and great loudspeakers. So timbre is kind of a broad term. It incorporates balance, frequency balance, or it can be thought of very roughly as frequency response. That’s a little dangerous because, not to infer that one on-axis measurement tells you what the frequency response is in a loudspeaker. It doesn’t. Other areas like off-axis response are very critical and we’ve learned that very far off-axis response like 60-75 degrees is very critical. Almost no one even measures it, let alone designs loudspeakers that are optimized at that sort of angle. But we’ve looked at real world situations and found that the all-important side-wall first reflection is a function of the speaker’s output at that kind of angle in the vast majority of listening rooms. So it means that you’re going to be hearing that kind of sound. You will hear it with a slight delay, and in many rooms without very much attenuation. So optimizing the response at that kind of extreme angle is very, very important. And then the power response, the reverberant field that we hear a little later in time is also important. So we literally design for all of those areas: the direct sound, the first reflection sound, and the reverberant field, because we know that all those three things are huge contributors to the timbre, to our perception of the speaker’s timbre."

Does that help?

 

[dponeill]

I would have said that it was not that important until I actually had a matched set. The difference was really striking in how sounds were positioned around the listening area.

 

[jcPanny]

Surround options.

First, some of the Klipsch reference in ceiling speakers with similar woofer size would probably be a good timber match for your fronts. However, you indicated that speaker and installation costs might be an issue.

Since wall mounting is not an option, consider a nice set of speaker stands for the surround channels. If it passes the WAF test, it will be the cheapest and easiest solution.

 

[BassHead]

Hi All,

I've got new Klipsch Reference fronts, center and 2 surrounds connected to a Denon 3806 receiver. All is well except for the surrounds. The problem is not the speakers, it's that I've got beautiful, picture-frame paneling throughout my living room and do not want to do what is necessary to mount them on the wall.
I bought the speaker package from a dealer going out of business at a deep discount knowing I might not use the surrounds for now. So, here's the deal. I'd like to use in-ceiling speakers for the surrounds but don't want to spend $$$ for them. Personally, I see the surrounds as having a supporting role and not really needing to be perfectly matched to the fronts. Am I off base here or is this an ear thing that is purely personal? I have to do some auditioning but Polk seems to have some decent in-ceiling designs. Thoughts anyone?

Matching of speakers all comes down to how much you want to pay the dealer to buy all their speakers.And thats what they want,If you have all high quality speakers front mains /center /surrounds/ and you have done your testing with each one or pair and they sound good it should not matter to mix and match,Subs do not matter at all any way what brand,Some like their speakers matched and some people know better.

 

[shokhead]

Matching of speakers all comes down to how much you want to pay the dealer to buy all their speakers.And thats what they want,If you have all high quality speakers front mains /center /surrounds/ and you have done your testing with each one or pair and they sound good it should not matter to mix and match,Subs do not matter at all any way what brand,Some like their speakers matched and some people know better.

LOL So a sony left,Axiom center,yamaha right and whatever for surrounds as long as you set them up right and they are of equal quality will match? Or
Maybe B&W fronts mains,a Klipsch center and a sony and yamaha for surrounds? All of of course have matching tuned cabinets and are ported the same if ported and same material used in the speakers and,well i've run out of breath,maybe someone else can take over.

 

[KDub]

An update and another question...

Many thanks to everyone for their input. I never cease to be amazed at the wealth of knowledge and experience available in forums like this. After reading your posts and talking to myriad dealers (a painful experience at times) I've decided to go ahead and mount my RS-7's to the paneled wall, which was always the best option apart from the cosmetic damage to the paneling. I was more comfortable cutting a big hole in a repairable, plastered ceiling than a small one in a very visible, paneled wall. As it turns out, it's not going to be as bad as I thought - got six holes drilled and they are hard to see even when looking for them.

Now, here's a twist on the original question: My RS-7's point straight out from the wall and they are mounted high - about 8' up. There's no good way to point them down toward the listening position. This is less than optimum but I have no real choice in the matter. Hopefully, my receiver's room EQ function can correct for the physical location of the speakers. Would in-ceilings have been better (theoretically) because they are down-firing? The adjacent wall would also have reflected sound toward the listener which, I would think, is a plus...

 

[ZoFo]

Are you using the speakers built-in mount?

If so I would look at some of the aftermarket mounting brackets that will allow you to adjust your surrounds to point them where you want to. If you speaker has a hole in the back to accept a universial swivel mounts that would be the best, if not you can get one that grips the speaker cabinet, take a look at these B-Tech's:

http://www.pinpoint-mktg.com/spkbrac.htm

 

[BassHead]

LOL So a sony left,Axiom center,yamaha right and whatever for surrounds as long as you set them up right and they are of equal quality will match? Or
Maybe B&W fronts mains,a Klipsch center and a sony and yamaha for surrounds? All of of course have matching tuned cabinets and are ported the same if ported and same material used in the speakers and,well i've run out of breath,maybe someone else can take over.

Shokhead did you read what i said,by the sound of things you know your speakersNOT!! I SAID OF HIGH QUALITY AND YOU TEST EACH PAIR TO SEE HOW THEY PERFORM,NOT SONY NOT -AXIOM AND NOT YOUR GUITAR YAMAHAS EITHER,I CAN SEE YOU ARE A BEGINNER ...