How does open house design impact HTs

[Palmettokid]

It just occurred to me that the location I'm planning for my HT is not an enclosed room. One end of my 19' X 22' family opens into the kitchen. Based on the proposed seating arrangement there is no left wall until you get to the kitchen wall. So really my family room is not 19' X 22' but 19' X 36'. It still has a flat 10' ceiling though.

How does this revalation impact my surround sound options? I currently have an older 5.1 system. Will this still work or should I start looking at 6.1 or 7.1?

Just when you think that things are getting clearer the other shoe drops.....

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It just occurred to me that the location I'm planning for my HT is not an enclosed room. One end of my 19' X 22' family opens into the kitchen. Based on the proposed seating arrangement there is no left wall until you get to the kitchen wall. So really my family room is not 19' X 22' but 19' X 36'. It still has a flat 10' ceiling though.

How does this revalation impact my surround sound options? I currently have an older 5.1 system. Will this still work or should I start looking at 6.1 or 7.1?

Just when you think that things are getting clearer the other shoe drops.....

Thanks in advance for your help.

Well, not good. 6.1 and 7.1 needs a rear wall somewhat closer to the listening position that what you have, and in either case, speakers on side walls as well. Unless, you can place side speakers on stand for a show?

 

[Johnd]

Agreed: not good. Take your speakers outside and compare that to them in a room. Walls and ceilings provide coloration and reverb, which, when properly done (no preponderance of reflection and relatively good absorption) is good and necessary.

 

[Fierce Mice]

From what I understand, you have "conventional" front, right, and back walls, but no left wall until you're on the other side of the kitchen? This could affect the "richness" of the sound, and could make placement of the left surround problematic, but should in no way preclude accurate, clear sound in your home theater. Of course, if your listening position happens to be in a null or peak, the sound won't be optimal...but rooms of every shape or size can have this problem. The lack of a left wall would likely be more problematic for multi-channel audio than for HT I would think.

Bass management will be difficult as well, but there are a number of different ways around this (depending on who you believe, 1 large sub is the way to go or 2 sub is the way to go...I personally believe 2 subs placed in different areas can achieve the best results..and don't forget to experiment with vertical placement if you have the means to place a sub above floor level)

You may consider orienting your HT on the diagonal in a corner also, that can help achieve more traditional room behavior from your sound system. But beware, when I tried this I found the front speakers directed energy directly into adjacent rooms!

Whether 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1, speaker placement is the key to success, and the lack of a side wall will not keep you from achieving your own piece of "ideal" listening.

Good luck!

 

[kingdaddy]

I disagree; my experience and other trusted sources seem to believe that an open room (in most cases) is great for bass. The surround speakers could be a problem but you should be able to hang them from the ceiling. Small closed rooms are by far and indisputably the worst thing for bass and bass is the hardest thing to get right IMO.

 

[ScottMayo]

I disagree; my experience and other trusted sources seem to believe that an open room (in most cases) is great for bass. The surround speakers could be a problem but you should be able to hang them from the ceiling. Small closed rooms are by far and indisputably the worst thing for bass and bass is the hardest thing to get right IMO.

It depends. A small closed room is typically a simple thing to treat. Not cheap, but simple. Fill the room with absorption. Done.

A large open room - by open, people generally mean an irregular arrangement of walls - can be misery to treat. Complicated interactions can happen. Without a lot of analysis (and a lot of analysis software fails to handle complicated rooms) you run the risk of never getting it right. Plus, "open" usually means the sound from the HT has the run of the house. That can get annoying.

Give me a large, closed, symmetrical room any day. Easy to model, easy to experiment in.

 

[kingdaddy]

It depends. A small closed room is typically a simple thing to treat. Not cheap, but simple. Fill the room with absorption. Done.

A large open room - by open, people generally mean an irregular arrangement of walls - can be misery to treat. Complicated interactions can happen. Without a lot of analysis (and a lot of analysis software fails to handle complicated rooms) you run the risk of never getting it right. Plus, "open" usually means the sound from the HT has the run of the house. That can get annoying.

Give me a large, closed, symmetrical room any day. Easy to model, easy to experiment in.

Not in the slightest true, I have much experience with small rooms, also ask Ethan from Real Traps he will concur. A small closed room has modes very close together and is very hard to treat, I know this from experience and much measurement, ringing is also more abundant in smaller rooms.

 

[Sheep]

Not in the slightest true, I have much experience with small rooms, also ask Ethan from Real Traps he will concur. A small closed room has modes very close together and is very hard to treat, I know this from experience and much measurement, ringing is also more abundant in smaller rooms.

I think you need to buy a DD series sub, or a SMS one.

BTW, good to see you back.

SheepStar

 

[kingdaddy]

I think you need to buy a DD series sub, or a SMS one.

BTW, good to see you back.

SheepStar

Equalizing in a small room (in my experience) causes many filters to add a lot of ringing, and I would prefer a bad FR to slow decay. So room treatments are paramount in a small room like I have, even so, its not enough. Even with 8 (2x4) panel traps covering nearly every inch of ceiling wall juncture this room is far worse then a friend of mine who had an open architecture room (only 2 parallel walls) and his bass quality is astounding with a modest IB, I have to use brute force and active cancellation to get decent quality.


BTW, thanks for the welcome back, I actually brows here a lot but rarely post, I only recently looked at the menu to discover this sub forum, I have great interest in room acoustics and have spent the last two years obsessing on getting my room right and measuring until I’m blue in the face so this is a great place, think I’ll hang out here for a some time.

 

[saurabh]

A small closed room has modes very close together and is very hard to treat, I know this from experience and much measurement, ringing is also more abundant in smaller rooms.

I agree with kingdaddy on this, small rooms are difficult to manage acoustically.

 

[ScottMayo]

Not in the slightest true, I have much experience with small rooms, also ask Ethan from Real Traps he will concur. A small closed room has modes very close together and is very hard to treat, I know this from experience and much measurement, ringing is also more abundant in smaller rooms.

Um... "fill the room with absorption" was intended as humor... I was proposing a room filled right to the ceiling with absorption. Hey, you might get a flat measurement that way. All 0 's is flat, right?

You don't have to tell me how difficult small rooms are to treat. When customers come to me with a 8x10x12' room, the first question I usually ask is if they have a basement or attic they might want to finish and treat instead. Treatment can do a lot, but size is still king in acoustics.

 

[kingdaddy]

Um... "fill the room with absorption" was intended as humor... I was proposing a room filled right to the ceiling with absorption. Hey, you might get a flat measurement that way. All 0 's is flat, right?

You don't have to tell me how difficult small rooms are to treat. When customers come to me with a 8x10x12' room, the first question I usually ask is if they have a basement or attic they might want to finish and treat instead. Treatment can do a lot, but size is still king in acoustics.

My bad, its hard to understand personalities from reading sometimes and I'm a little new around here so I haven’t got a good feel for who is who and their posting styles. Just wanted to make sure the OP didn't get discouraged and think a large or open room was as difficult or bad as what some seemed to imply.

 

[Fierce Mice]

I disagree; my experience and other trusted sources seem to believe that an open room (in most cases) is great for bass.

I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with me, but just in case, I felt I'd clarify. Bass management may be more difficult solely from the standpoint that it takes more output from a given subwoofer to "fill" a large room than to "fill" a small room. Nothing more. That's why I went on to discuss the option of 1 large (and presumably expensive) subwoofer vs. 2 smaller (or presumably less expensive) subwoofers to help a) balance peaks and nulls and b) fill the room with clear bass (for the same price or less than 1 larger subwoofer).

Regardless, I have a larger room that I use for my HT and I've been very happy with it, even though it's a work-in-progress. The obstacles to good sound are very different than what I faced in my last house, but good sound is not necessarily sacrificed by the size of the room.

 

[Johnd]

Allow me to add that there is good reason why all soundrooms have four (or more) walls, a floor and a ceiling. Reverberation, coloration and relection, to mention a few, all of which is lacking (to some degree) in an open room design. Just some food for thought. Cheers.

 

[Fierce Mice]

Allow me to add that there is good reason why all soundrooms have four (or more) walls, a floor and a ceiling. Reverberation, coloration and relection, to mention a few, all of which is lacking (to some degree) in an open room design. Just some food for thought. Cheers.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say they're lacking, they just aren't as tightly controlled as they are in a soundroom. Most soundrooms are also highly controlled environments with one purpose and one purpose only. No WAF needs to be factored in! Rooms with four walls and a roof of even height are easy to build to avoid harsh peaks or nulls (I always used the Excel spreadsheet on the Stereophile website). No arches, no doorways, no floor-to ceiling windows... but it would be lunacy to assume great results can't be achieved from a less-then-optimal room! A relatively small number of HT can be set up to the tolerances of a soundroom, and I know I wouldn't want to live in the space used for professional studios.

That's where the art of HT setup comes in, finding the best mix of the ideal(s) involved: ideal sound, ideal picture, ideal cost, ideal comfort etc etc etc.

The original poster was concerned (the way I read it anyway) that his having to "settle" for a less than optimal room design would have dire consequences on the HT. The last time I saw a first-run movie, it was in a LARGE room, and it sounded pretty awesome =) Of course, it was a bit more symmetrical than the original poster's setup!

 

[Johnd]

I'll agree with much of what you stated, but, for the record, I never asserted that good, or even great results cannot be obtained in less than optimal conditions. Most of us do not have anechoic rooms, so my reference to professional soundrooms was for illustration purposes...what is ideal, and what we should first consider (room treatment) if we expect remotely good sound...period. We all like talking about great receivers, connections and speakers, but that all goes out the window if you don't have a good starting point (a good acoustical room).

In my terminology, one should not use terms such as listening room and theater (let alone dedicated theater) if he does not start with good, if not near optimal, acoustics.

These days, I guess, one can go to BB, lay out $500.00 for a htib, stick it in a tiled bathroom, their garage, or a "room" with just two walls, yet still call it a listening room or theater. Perhaps it's just semantics. I think of it as sound 101. Cheers.

 

[Kai]

I have found it fairly easy to get good sound in my room with my very modest system and wide open floor plan.
System placement, imo, is the first key. After that comes room/acoustic treatments etc.
An open area with good components, well placed with decent treatments lends an "openness" to the sound imo.
You do need good speakers and power to achieve that though which my system, unhappily but not long lasting, lacks in the receiver dept.

Here is a link to my floor plan and system pics in the room.

http://community.webshots.com/user/KaiWinters

 

[Johnd]

I have found it fairly easy to get good sound in my room with my very modest system and wide open floor plan.
System placement, imo, is the first key. After that comes room/acoustic treatments etc.

I have to respectfully disagree. Room acoustics is number one.

For argument's sake, it is easier to make a mediocre system sound very good in good space than it is to make a high end system sound very good in bad space.

 

[Palmettokid]

We met with the sales agent yesterday, a national tract builder, to pick options for our new house, the one with the family room described in the opening post. The agent tells me I'll be working with someone from their design center when it comes to selecting the HT package options. I guess he'll have some suggestions on speaker placement. Especially since they have done this type of layout in this particular plan before.

They seem to be flexible on some of our request but I don't know yet how far that will go. Looks like I'll be either forced to work with them during construction or will have to retrofit a system afterwards. What tips do you have or what should I be looking for at this meeting. How can I tell if their suggestions are right for the room or just right for the builder?

My decision may come down to letting them prewire and adding my equipment later or just install a system after the house is mine.

 

[Johnd]

Get everything in writing as soon as possible.

From the builder:
1) room plan, incuding elevation;
2) schedule of materials.

From the installer (sub?):
1) room plan, showing his opinion on optimal placement of speakers and display;
2) schedule of materials;
a) wire brand, gauge and type
b) video interconnects brand, gauge and type.

Then you can post this info here in a simple concise way and get some informed feedback. You can then also go to your local ht installer and get feedback from them. If they're reputable, they'll stop short of attacking their competion, but if the materials and plans are substandard, they should give you helpful alternatives (and a simple explanation of why option A is better than option B). You may get a quick education. Will wait to see what you post. Happy hunting!