How do theaters use so many speakers ?

Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
How on earth do theater use sonmany speakers. ,
Is there a way you can do this at home without a super expensive amplifier ?
Wow I’ve seen Cinemark having 24 or more speakers before .

Do they use massive center speakers I hear dialog so much louder . My baby klipsch icon cEnter is very lacking and does
Not timbre match well with centers that have bigger woofers and horns .


Reptilians invading in year 2025
Tesla spoken to them
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
No reply’s how is this corn done ? Does a lizard man teleportation device appear at the theater and hook everything up .


Reptilians invading in year 2025
Tesla spoken to them
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
There is no way to do this without expensive audio processing and a lot of amplification. Theaters individually amplify all their speakers, often with Crown or QSC amplifiers (or similar) which may run $1,000 each, along with the speakers which are often $1,000 per speaker. That's not including the front stack of speakers which will be significantly more money.

Theater design and engineering is really crazy on the commercial side.

Yes, it's cool. No, you can't afford it. But, feel free to research it if you want.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
There is no way to do this without expensive audio processing and a lot of amplification. Theaters individually amplify all their speakers, often with Crown or QSC amplifiers (or similar) which may run $1,000 each, along with the speakers which are often $1,000 per speaker. That's not including the front stack of speakers which will be significantly more money.

Theater design and engineering is really crazy on the commercial side.

Yes, it's cool. No, you can't afford it. But, feel free to research it if you want.
The audio processing *shouldn't* be expensive. If it is, it's simply because of the lack of competition in the space (I guarantee an average PC could process; so the real cost is software).

I also don't know why the amps would need to be terribly expensive. Since you are using a ton of speakers anyway, I'd think you can do better to get volume with sensitivity / count than with any particular amp robustness.

OTOH, it's a boutique product. Costing $10k or costing $100k isn't a giant difference in the scheme of things.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
The audio processing *shouldn't* be expensive. If it is, it's simply because of the lack of competition in the space (I guarantee an average PC could process; so the real cost is software).

I also don't know why the amps would need to be terribly expensive. Since you are using a ton of speakers anyway, I'd think you can do better to get volume with sensitivity / count than with any particular amp robustness.

OTOH, it's a boutique product. Costing $10k or costing $100k isn't a giant difference in the scheme of things.
Audio processing isn't about just running it through a PC and calling it processed.

Speakers need timing delays and proper EQ curves. It also needs 24/7 reliability which no typical computer OS can offer. So, you are in the world of LINUX and similar operating systems, and very custom software with a low-volume selling level that needs immaculate support.

So, I think you are on point with understanding that movie theaters are a 'boutique' setup. It is likely far closer, or less than $10K for processing the audio to a theater. The speakers are a few hundred each, so nothing crazy there. But, they do need a lot of VERY reliable rack-mount power, so it's going to be several hundred dollars per channel for high quality, high power, sound.

A great deal will depend on the theater though and what they are looking to achieve. The JBL surround speakers, by example, have pricing that's fairly easy to find online and ranges a significant amount depending on the model you are looking at.

Their 8320 surround is under $200, while their 9350 hits at over $800.


Just looking at JBL's page and flipping over to Full Compass for pricing gives you a good idea of how much things really cost. But, yes, it is a very specific application, with very complex decoding required which is then paired with audio equalization and reliability which needs to be of super high quality. Not all theaters, of course, deliver on this, but those that do will be paying for it.


Of course, JBL has their cheaper stuff as well...
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
For every conversation like this one there's gonna be somebody who says they can do it for less or do it on the cheap and "it will be just as good". Or there's no need for this or that expense. Sigh. Always.

But for those who have to live and breath the solution and be able to purchase and support what they offer, its often a much more expensive and complex situation than first meets the eye. @Verdinut posted a nice link that shows a wide array of solutions and none of them is going to be cheap, simple or easy. I enjoyed that little tour through the catalog of how theaters could put together sound systems. I accept that my theater is going to provide awesome sound. My local theater chain (owned by a real person, Dan Harkins) is excellent. They use Klipsch theater products and I'm sure there's something out there that's cheaper. But I'll let Dan pick the stuff out, sweat the details, and make sure its running when I show up for the next movie.
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
No reply’s how is this corn done ? Does a lizard man teleportation device appear at the theater and hook everything up .


Reptilians invading in year 2025
Tesla spoken to them
Lolo, nice! lol :D
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Audio processing isn't about just running it through a PC and calling it processed.

Speakers need timing delays and proper EQ curves. It also needs 24/7 reliability which no typical computer OS can offer. So, you are in the world of LINUX and similar operating systems, and very custom software with a low-volume selling level that needs immaculate support.
My career is pretty evenly split between development, data analytics, and server administration. And yes: If I were to write and sell a "processing box", I'd do it on a custom configuration if LINUX or Windows Shell.

Computers run everything from pacemakers to cars; but more to the point, computers already run theaters. So even granting that there's a non-zero chance of equipment failure on a piece of computer hardware; so what? Theaters absolutely do not run 24/7, and their equipment does not, and their reliability is not 100%.

It's easier to write for commodity hardware than to make your own. The numbers are relatively low (40k in the US) to be sure; but again, I don't see how that's solved by moving from commercial hardware to custom hardware?

So, I think you are on point with understanding that movie theaters are a 'boutique' setup. It is likely far closer, or less than $10K for processing the audio to a theater. The speakers are a few hundred each, so nothing crazy there. But, they do need a lot of VERY reliable rack-mount power, so it's going to be several hundred dollars per channel for high quality, high power, sound.
It's the same requirements as other professional venues. I see no real difference between a concert and a theater in terms of amp, cabling, etc.

The difference would be in the processing.

Just looking at JBL's page and flipping over to Full Compass for pricing gives you a good idea of how much things really cost. But, yes, it is a very specific application, with very complex decoding required which is then paired with audio equalization and reliability which needs to be of super high quality. Not all theaters, of course, deliver on this, but those that do will be paying for it.
If I've got 2,500 theaters to re-sound over the next 10 years; do you think I pay retail? I doubt real prices have much relationship to listed prices.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
For every conversation like this one there's gonna be somebody who says they can do it for less or do it on the cheap and "it will be just as good". Or there's no need for this or that expense. Sigh. Always.
That's always the response from the over-priced establishment.

Whether it's rocket companies saying that re-use is a pipe-dream or auto companies saying that EV is cost prohibitive, or people just arguing that lampcord is as good or better than $100/ft speaker cable.

In fact: "we can do it for less" exactly what Google said when they looked at the high cost of "normal" server equipment and decided that they could do it for less and it would be "better"; implementing their search engine on RAIC and desktop-grade hardware (this eventually moved over to custom designs in collaboration with Facebook; but still mostly on desktop-grade hardware).

I live in a corporate world. How to cut costs while improving performance is one of the things I do... and I do it in a mission critical environment (moved from IBM to healthcare to financial billing)... so perhaps you should come up with some real data rather than platitudes about "somebody"? Do you have any *data*? No?

"Sigh" right back at you there.

Of course there are any number of people who fail to understand why some costs are what they are because they don't understand the needs of the application (what you are alluding to); but the flip side is equally true.
 
B

baronvonellis

Audioholic
Don't you know, there are actors behind the screen reading the dialog and blowing stuff up backstage, it's all real!! At my theatre, they play a huge pipe organ for the music! Check out the Music Box Theatre in Chicago.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
My career is pretty evenly split between development, data analytics, and server administration. And yes: If I were to write and sell a "processing box", I'd do it on a custom configuration if LINUX or Windows Shell.
I've spoken to some of these manufacturers, and I think a lot of it lives in the LINUX world. This makes a lot of sense it seems. Likely correct about some Windows Shell as well.

Computers run everything from pacemakers to cars; but more to the point, computers already run theaters. So even granting that there's a non-zero chance of equipment failure on a piece of computer hardware; so what? Theaters absolutely do not run 24/7, and their equipment does not, and their reliability is not 100%.
But, like a good computer server, they will have redundant power supplies, which adds to the cost and creates a far higher price because it isn't a commodity item anymore. Then you may have a redundant failover chassis. Which does the same thing while costing an additional piece of gear. It's not actually insane the price for one or two of these pieces. Several grand typically. But, you may need half a dozen of them to cover all the processing for the entire space. So, that's where costs add up.

It's easier to write for commodity hardware than to make your own. The numbers are relatively low (40k in the US) to be sure; but again, I don't see how that's solved by moving from commercial hardware to custom hardware?
Depends on if the commercial hardware includes the provisions for security and quality which is required by the different manufacturers. Copyright protection and high fidelity audio processing and video processing with accurate audio/video sync and timings aren't built into commodity commercial hardware. They are built into higher-end commercial chips, but those always are put onto a custom board.

Must like projectors are built from commercial parts and put onto a custom board, different manufacturers do the same thing for audio processing and sometimes their amps. Especially the big guns (JBL, Crown, etc.). Many amps are just boring amps.

It's the same requirements as other professional venues. I see no real difference between a concert and a theater in terms of amp, cabling, etc.
Theaters actually require far less than stage theater or other venues do in actuality. A theater requires microphones, which gets into the entire digital world. The industry has moved away from XLR to IP based digital audio in the professional market. Well, at least behind the walls. So, a movie theater gets 12/2 or 10/2 cabling to the speakers and it gets hooked up to JBL or Crown amps. But, the movies come from studios on hard drives and I know jack about that technology except I would bet that while they are redundant and standard drives, they are DRM'd to high hell and back. Needing custom and proprietary software to decode. Go figure.

The difference would be in the processing.
Yeah, but not really. The initial processing is likely a fair bit different than what we have in homes, but the post processing really isn't different than what many good venues have in it. JBL/Crown have been at it for years and they do custom build for different scenarios as they have for decades. Touring rigs need a lot more durability. Concert speakers run thousands of watts through the line arrays, while a commercial theater may hit a thousand or two on the big speakers but are limited to hundreds on the side speakers. Large venue setups which are installed don't require road worthiness in terms of the case, but may require greater reliability. So, costs stay the same, but priorities shift.

If I've got 2,500 theaters to re-sound over the next 10 years; do you think I pay retail? I doubt real prices have much relationship to listed prices.
Online pricing is sometimes within 10% of standard cost. But, yes, there will be some cost variance depending on just about every factor. It can become pedantic to consider really. 10% or 20% savings will be had with enough volume while still providing healthy profits to manufacturers and installers.

But, these are LONG term costs. You may have a $80K+ projector along with the same expense for audio and another $100K+ in the theater itself. Half a million to do a theater. It's all in line.

An interesting aside: I work in commercial AV. That means, typically, boardrooms. When I entered the business some 16+ years ago, my number one complaint was that the only amplifiers available to a boardroom which had half a dozen speakers in it, was two rack unit 500+ watt JBL/Crown/etc. amplifiers. They had loud fans, were heavy and bulky, and cost in excess of $1,000. Often these were single channel amps as well.
Now, we have half rack width (or smaller) single rack unit height amps with 100 watts or less. Often two channels (or more) and can run a dozen 70v speakers in a typical boardroom without issue and cost under $500. Cooling has switched to quiet systems as well with small fans or passive cooling. JBL/Crown still doesn't make this type of product though. It comes from companies that specialize more in the commercial/boardroom marketplace. Extron, Crestron, Biamp and others.

I do think that these manufacturers are making products that utilize a lot of off-the-shelf electronics, but the products are tailored for the industry they are in and extremely reliable or high quality. They have guys who have been doing it for years (or decades) so while the boards are being custom assembled, the electronics aren't so much 'custom' as 'purpose' built. We've definitely seen an overall improvement over the last twenty years in reliability and functionality with price decreases overall, but amplifiers still cost a pretty penny and there's a lot of speakers to drive.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
That's always the response from the over-priced establishment.

Whether it's rocket companies saying that re-use is a pipe-dream or auto companies saying that EV is cost prohibitive, or people just arguing that lampcord is as good or better than $100/ft speaker cable.

In fact: "we can do it for less" exactly what Google said when they looked at the high cost of "normal" server equipment and decided that they could do it for less and it would be "better"; implementing their search engine on RAIC and desktop-grade hardware (this eventually moved over to custom designs in collaboration with Facebook; but still mostly on desktop-grade hardware).

I live in a corporate world. How to cut costs while improving performance is one of the things I do... and I do it in a mission critical environment (moved from IBM to healthcare to financial billing)... so perhaps you should come up with some real data rather than platitudes about "somebody"? Do you have any *data*? No?

"Sigh" right back at you there.

Of course there are any number of people who fail to understand why some costs are what they are because they don't understand the needs of the application (what you are alluding to); but the flip side is equally true.
I think this is a great concept. For technically motivated individuals and companies of that nature.

MOVIE THEATERS ARE NOT THAT!!! Neither is a typical homeowner (home automation) or corporate entity.

Real world: Most companies outsource their IT. This means if they get a standard SIP telephone for VoIP, they don't know what the heck that is, what that means, how to set it up, or much else. Their IT department didn't set up their VoIP phones, but actually hired ANOTHER company to support all the VoIP phones in the office so they don't know what they are doing either. Three layers deep is where adding a standard SIP phone to a system lives in many businesses these days. So, a 'standard' SIP phone, which can be driven from a computer or even from a specific device, is FAR too complex for a normal business to handle easily.

Likewise, control systems and automation are all over the place. People talk about open standards, but really, don't know what they are talking about. Amazon (Alexa), Apple (Home), and others are using different proprietary standards for automation. It's no different than X10 or Insteon or Bluetooth, or much else. Get into real open options, like IP, infrared, RS232, or similar, with a published specification and that is actually 'OPEN'. But, then you have to know how to deal with an actual open standard and have equipment that can speak that language. Which is, beyond most consumers. So, they get into the highly proprietary systems (Alexa) and think they have a magic bullet. Until they add a Nest to their Amazon home and realize that Google's Nest and Amazon's Alexa don't play together. Eff off! Is what Google says to Amazon.

But control systems which work with the published IP protocol not only speaker to Amazon as well as Google, but can bridge the gap between the two. People do this often enough for there to be forums and discussions about it, but it's (once again) well beyond the typical consumer.
But, when the typical consumer wants that functionality, they don't want some half-baked solution. There are CHEAP control systems out there. They have networking issues constantly and low-priced devices with shoddy hardware which is so-so at times. Some of it is quite robust, but the actual control system isn't professionally supported and may come from a company that has zero long-term support and no real interest in becoming a serious player.

So, Crestron, Extron, AMX, and to an extent, Control 4 and Logitech are out there filling that gap by producing more expensive devices with the support and structure that is required to provide reliable products which the average consumer can use on a daily basis without the need to know any technical skills. It still takes a qualified installer/programmer to get much of that working (except Harmony from Logitech), but once in place, these systems can run for years and years without any major hiccups whatsoever.

Yes, I've seen this. That doesn't mean that the technically motivated can't bring about change, but it means that most of the world isn't technically motivated and doesn't have the resources to do so.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Don't you know, there are actors behind the screen reading the dialog and blowing stuff up backstage, it's all real!! At my theatre, they play a huge pipe organ for the music! Check out the Music Box Theatre in Chicago.
We go to see performances of Harry Potter movies and Star Wars movies at a local venue where the National Symphony Orchestra plays to the movie. It's always a fun way to get a mix of entertainment and culture at the same time with the kids.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
That's always the response from the over-priced establishment.

Whether it's rocket companies saying that re-use is a pipe-dream or auto companies saying that EV is cost prohibitive, or people just arguing that lampcord is as good or better than $100/ft speaker cable.

In fact: "we can do it for less" exactly what Google said when they looked at the high cost of "normal" server equipment and decided that they could do it for less and it would be "better"; implementing their search engine on RAIC and desktop-grade hardware (this eventually moved over to custom designs in collaboration with Facebook; but still mostly on desktop-grade hardware).

I live in a corporate world. How to cut costs while improving performance is one of the things I do... and I do it in a mission critical environment (moved from IBM to healthcare to financial billing)... so perhaps you should come up with some real data rather than platitudes about "somebody"? Do you have any *data*? No?

"Sigh" right back at you there.

Of course there are any number of people who fail to understand why some costs are what they are because they don't understand the needs of the application (what you are alluding to); but the flip side is equally true.
JerryLove
Dude, if I may use that term of endearment, before you jump to conclusions and boasting of your credentials, it might be wise to take a deep breath first. First off, my comments were about cheapness verses a quality solution. Not about cost reduction while improving quality. If you took umbrage at cheapness, well, I suppose that answers itself

"I live in a corporate world. How to cut costs while improving performance is one of the things I do... and I do it in a mission critical environment (moved from IBM to healthcare to financial billing)..."

I just retired with 40+ years at IBM so don't sing a song about corporate America to me. I just retired from nearly 50 years of putting up with cheap-ass bean counters so you can take that song and stuff it. My first week in blessed goofing off bliss and I get this crap in a comment about being cheap instead of quality?

Don't bother with the replies, you'll be in my ignore list.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
JerryLove
Dude, if I may use that term of endearment, before you jump to conclusions
My conclusion was that you were being smug and condecending without having established a basis for that. Reducing my post to "there's always someone, sigh" would be why I concluded that.

Don't bother with the replies, you'll be in my ignore list.
And I see I was right.

There's nothing in your post that would argue against my thesis. Add in your "post and cover your ears" and my opinion of you is quite low :(
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
BMXTRIX,

I think you are completely correct in why we are in the space we are in... I agree that theaters aren't interested in taking on re-engineering (your outsourcing reference).

I merely assert that processing doesn't need to be expensive. It is because it can be. It's a small enough market that there's no disruptive influence looking to come in and drop costs; which I assert absolutely could be.

My points of disagreement?
I think you over estimate the requirements to meet acceptable reliability/performance.
I think you under-estimate how much of a discount a company will give you when you have $20mil to spend.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
There is no way to do this without expensive audio processing and a lot of amplification. Theaters individually amplify all their speakers, often with Crown or QSC amplifiers (or similar) which may run $1,000 each, along with the speakers which are often $1,000 per speaker. That's not including the front stack of speakers which will be significantly more money.

Theater design and engineering is really crazy on the commercial side.

Yes, it's cool. No, you can't afford it. But, feel free to research it if you want.
Are you talking about behind the screen speakers because nothing I’ve seen at Tinseltown or Cinemark near me looks like it’s 1000 a piece . Look like cheap mass produced stuff.


Reptilians invading in year 2025
Tesla spoken to them
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Are you talking about behind the screen speakers because nothing I’ve seen at Tinseltown or Cinemark near me looks like it’s 1000 a piece . Look like cheap mass produced stuff.


Reptilians invading in year 2025
Tesla spoken to them
Understand, when you get into the commercial and/or professional realm, pretty much 0$ goes into "making a speaker look good". Pretty much 100% of the $ goes into performance!

You typically want "pretty speakers" in your home, but in commercial/pro service, speakers have exactly 1-job: To perform!
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Are you talking about behind the screen speakers because nothing I’ve seen at Tinseltown or Cinemark near me looks like it’s 1000 a piece . Look like cheap mass produced stuff.
Look at the links I provided. Most of the surround speakers are actually about $200 each or so. Cheap by most standards. Some cost a fair bit more. But, the case design will use heavier materials to protect the speaker. It'll look like a boring black box, but that's ideal for a theater environment. It won't be sexy looking, but should be well built and last for years of movie viewings, often at reference audio levels.

The speakers behind the screens often look really lousy. But, the speaker quality will match up nicely with the rest.

Don't underestimate the cost of these products. But, if you have smaller movie theaters, they may use speakers which are on the lower end of what is available. Odds are very good though that they are one of the models that I specifically linked to previously.
 

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