How Do I Find Reflection Points?

Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm interested in room treatments, though it may be a bit before I can afford them. Due to my current ceiling being at 6'8" and my space limited, my center channel is mounted on the ceiling. I know, less than optimal, actually a generally bad idea, but that is the only place for it. I'm primarily concerned about something for that speaker and want to add something for the sides too, because my room is only 8'9" wide. Cost is a major factor, as is size of treatment - I don't have a foot to lose on the sides by adding two 6" panels or a half foot to lose on my ceiling.:( To make matters worse, I think, I don't really have a back wall, as my living room opens into the kithchen.

I'm starting my research now for something I hope to be able to do early next year and I keep seeing that the most important places to put treatment is at the first reflection point. So how do I determine where that actually is? And what is a cost effective, space effective way to add treatment that will still keep my tiny place looking livable and nice when girls come over?

Thanks

Jack
 
nibhaz

nibhaz

Audioholic Chief
It's easy!

Have someone else hold a mirror along the wall you are concerned with while you sit in the sweet spot. Now have that person move the mirror along the wall. Wherever you can see your speakers in the mirror, that's a reflection point.
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
Mirror trick A+

Nibhaz, that worked great, and only took about a minute to do on my own with a personal sized mirror and some tape.

Savant, thanks for the link. Good info, it helped, but also added some confusion. They say that you really need a 6" min panel to get any real results and that anyone who claims that thinner ones can do the same is either confused or selling oil - of the snake variety.

I really dont want to lose half a foot of headroom (6'8" ceiling). Can I get good results with a 2" panel? They may not be as good as a thicker panel, but will it make a noticeable improvement or am I just going to have to suck up and get the thick ones to really make it worthwhile? I'd rather do it right the first time, or as close as I can afford.

BTW, I'm looking at the GIK panels for bang for the buck (affordability) and the reviews i've been able to find.
 
Savant

Savant

Audioholics Resident Acoustics Expert
Jack Hammer said:
Savant, thanks for the link. Good info, it helped, but also added some confusion. They say that you really need a 6" min panel to get any real results and that anyone who claims that thinner ones can do the same is either confused or selling oil - of the snake variety.

I really dont want to lose half a foot of headroom (6'8" ceiling). Can I get good results with a 2" panel? They may not be as good as a thicker panel, but will it make a noticeable improvement or am I just going to have to suck up and get the thick ones to really make it worthwhile? I'd rather do it right the first time, or as close as I can afford.
For treatment of reflections, there is a lot of misinformation on the web (as well as widely differing opinions :) ), I'm afraid. Check out the first slide on page 3 of this article; it shows about were some common absorbers begin to roll off in terms of frequency response. Personally, I don't even like this slide for a couple of reasons:

(a) There are a wide variety of 1", 2", 4", and other thickness absorbers available on the market. They do not all, universally, exhibit this sort of roll-off behavior. E.g., there are 2" absorbers that perform better and there are 2" absorbers that do not perform as well as the generic curve shown in the slide.

(b) This sort of generalization does not take into account off-axis behavior. In small rooms, sound hits panels at an angle, thus increasing the thickness that is "seen" by an incoming sound wave. The effectiveness shown in the slide was developed based on the reverberant room behavior of an absorber. This sort of behavior (which is atypical for a small room) is not the same as the behavior observed from a single pass of sound through the panel (which is what happens in a small room). Reflections in a small room like a home theater tend to have a very small number of passes through an absorber. So the behavior in a reverberant field - which assumes sound is passing through the absorber many hundreds/thousands of times - is largely irrelevant to small room applications. This link shows graphically the point I'm making. Please note that the material shown could be any thickness or type of absorber. The only "catch" is that for flat panels, the amount of reflection from the panel - relative to the same thickness of sculpted panel (like the one shown) - will increase as angle of incidence increases. This is usually not a bad thing, though, since it often lends itself to just enough reflection to make a room treated with flat absorbers sound "less dead" than a room treated with the same amount of sculpted panels having similar published performance characteristics. The absorption relative to an untreated (e.g., drywall) surface is still much higher. But the slight bit of reflection you get off a flat panel can often be quite useful.

Page 3 of the article referenced also talks about the usefulness of an airspace behind the absorber, which further extends the "roll-off" to lower frequencies.

In short, to answer your question, using a good 2" thick absorber - with or without the airspace - to address the mid and high frequency reflections in your room is a perfectly acceptable application. The reference to a minimum thickness of 6" on the link I gave you is, IMO, in the context of addressing a broader range of frequencies. Which, if you decide on something like GIK panels - again, with or without an airspace - would be more applicable to your situation anyway! :)
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
That made sense, one of the bigger problems I'm having is finding info that is written in laymens terms. Most of it starts off good, then gets really technical, at which point I start to get lost and highly confused. I don't really need to understand the detailed science behind them (I'm not going to start designing panels ;) ), I just want to know what will be best for my application.

I also saw a lot of recommendations to put panels behind my mains, this would be rather difficult for me, due to shelving directly behind my stands. Is that a major factor or should I just pick up a couple of panels for the first reflection points and leave it at that, for now?

Thanks

Jack
 
Savant

Savant

Audioholics Resident Acoustics Expert
Jack Hammer said:
I also saw a lot of recommendations to put panels behind my mains, this would be rather difficult for me, due to shelving directly behind my stands. Is that a major factor or should I just pick up a couple of panels for the first reflection points and leave it at that, for now?
The first reflection points would be a fine start. You should notice quite a difference, even with a relatively small number of panels.
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
Savant said:
The first reflection points would be a fine start. You should notice quite a difference, even with a relatively small number of panels.
Thanks, I'll start there. Once I get those first three panels (R/L Ceiling) installed I'll worry about the other locations.

Jack
 
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