How can I improve music listening with what we already have?

[Potstickr]

Hello,

I am new to the audio scene. We have a Denon AVR-789/1909 with Energy Take Classics, but only have it connected as 3.1 for now. The goal has always been to find a good balance between listening to music and watching movies.

Originally, I attached the speakers above the TV, up near the ceiling (for WAF) and slightly angled down. I ran Audyssey, but the sound didn't fill the room enough when listening to music. After educating myself a little more, through the audioholics basics page, I realized that maybe I had the left and right speakers spaced too closely together (~4.5 feet). The central listening area is 15.5 feet away from the TV screen (image 3). Trying to do an equilateral triangle is not practical, neither is an 80% ratio.

First thing I did was try to move the speakers lower (image 1). Reran Audyssey and things started to immediately sound better. Soundstage was wider and filled the living room much better. I also didn't have to turn up the volume quite as loud as before to hear things. In image 1, the LR speakers are barely 6 feet apart (~39% ratio), but sound much better than before. I decided to keep experimenting.

In image 2, I moved the speakers 8.5 feet apart (still only a 55% ratio), but voices sounded thinner and overall volume seemed to diminish.

I know our room setup is not ideal, but I would like to learn how to work with what we have, please. Are the Take Classics too small for the room? The bass sounds good enough, and sometimes too boomy that I have to dial down the subwoofer. The speakers sound like it can't quite reach the higher notes in songs sometimes. What I mean is, listening to "Let It Go" (we watch a lot of Frozen with a 3-year-old), it seems Elsa's voice should be sounding higher when she hits the higher octaves. Not sure if it's just supposed to sound like that or not.

Wife is ok with the setup in image 1. She definitely would not want the wider speaker distance of image 2. Image 2 didn't sound as good anyways. I could probably get away with a wider speaker distance if I located it back up near the ceiling, but there's no easy way to experiment with that. From the experience of others, is having the speakers angled from the ceiling worse off than having them at the mid-height of the room (ceiling is 9 ft high)? I don't really want the speakers at seated ear-height. That may be ideal for movies, but sometimes we like to stand up and dance and music sounds better when the speakers are at 5 ft height for that.

Would we be better served by replacing the Take Classics with just a pair of larger bookshelf speakers and slowly add to it down the road? At this point, I'd rather not spend more than $400-500 and would much rather learn how to get the most out of what we have first. Once I have a better grasp of what good audio is about, then I can make better informed decisions about upgrades down the road. Thank you to those that can share their knowledge, experience, and advice.

image 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3s3mra3snhwgiqh/image 1.jpg

image 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/u0v3cbyqopd0fnx/image 2.jpg

image 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jl4qyx8t0otha0i/image 3.JPG

 

[ImcLoud]

I would replace the front sound stage...
You can get a pair of 200se's and a center 200se from ascendacoustics on B stock for $373.28, that would be a great start...

As for placement, I would put the left and right in line with the center {height wise}.. Get some omni mounts and mount your left and right on the outside of the fireplaces wall at the same height as the center...

After that is done, swap out the subwoofer, or add 3 more, put them in stacks of 2 on each side of the fireplace, lol wife should love that...

 

[rojo]

Welcome to the forum Mr. Stickr! Nice post padding.

Would your wife allow you to take over a bedroom to use as your TV room? Would she allow you to relocate your TV to the corner where your big bamboo fern thing is, and to move the couches to opposite sides of the rug? Don't worry too much about the location of your coax CATV breakout. Liberal application of wiremold will allow you to route that wherever you wish while maintaining sufficient WAF.

I don't envy your uphill battle Mr. Stickr.

By the way, consider using an image host such as imgur.com to post images inline.

 

[Potstickr]

I would replace the front sound stage...
You can get a pair of 200se's and a center 200se from ascendacoustics on B stock for $373.28, that would be a great start...

As for placement, I would put the left and right in line with the center {height wise}.. Get some omni mounts and mount your left and right on the outside of the fireplaces wall at the same height as the center...

After that is done, swap out the subwoofer, or add 3 more, put them in stacks of 2 on each side of the fireplace, lol wife should love that...

Thanks for the advice, ImcLoud. The bookcase shelf is gonna have to stay where it's at, but I'll try to put the front right speaker on one of the bookcase shelves, inline with the center speaker. Do you anticipate any problems with the front speaker being inside the bookcase? Also, the bookcase is flush with the wall edge, and is actually 6 inches behind the mantle that the center speaker rests on. When you say inline, do you mean all three speakers need to be straight horizontally, and also the same depth? You probably do. I'll experiment and see how it all sounds. My concern is how it will sound when standing up and dancing to music. Thanks for the help and pointing me in the right direction with future upgrades.

 

[Potstickr]

Welcome to the forum Mr. Stickr! Nice post padding.

Would your wife allow you to take over a bedroom to use as your TV room? Would she allow you to relocate your TV to the corner where your big bamboo fern thing is, and to move the couches to opposite sides of the rug? Don't worry too much about the location of your coax CATV breakout. Liberal application of wiremold will allow you to route that wherever you wish while maintaining sufficient WAF.

I don't envy your uphill battle Mr. Stickr.

By the way, consider using an image host such as imgur.com to post images inline.

Rojo, I never considered placing the TV in the corner. That is a very interesting suggestion! However, placing the couch in the opposing corner of the rug will block our path to the backyard. The couch is bulkier than it appears in the photo. I appreciate the idea, though. And thank you for the imgur tip, I'll be sure to use it next time.

 

[zieglj01]

Would we be better served by replacing the Take Classics with just a pair of larger bookshelf speakers and slowly add to it down the road? At this point, I'd rather not spend more than $400-500 and would much rather learn how to get the most out of what we have first. Once I have a better grasp of what good audio is about, then I can make better informed decisions about upgrades down the road. Thank you to those that can share their knowledge, experience, and advice.

Yes, that is where I would start - fire you speaker system

I would start with a pair of bookshelf speakers

JBL Studio 230 speakers
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Studio-230-Bookshelf-Loudspeaker/dp/B00GJXSWZW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408054281&sr=8-1&keywords=jbl+studio+230+speakers

Or, NHT SuperOne 2.1 speakers
SuperOne 2.1 | Bookshelf Speakers | Premium Audio Equipment

Just place them a littler higher than when you are sitting down - so you can also dance to the music.

 

[walter duque]

You need to move some air. Seems like a large area to fill with sound and your speakers are not gonna do that. Don't get me wrong they are decent speakers but just not for your application. Like in post above, buy some new speakers with larger drivers. Don't you have 2 more speakers??

 

[Potstickr]

Yes, Walter, there are two remaining Take Classic speakers, but I'm still debating whether or not I want to crawl through the attic space during the Summer to run the wires or wait until Winter when it's cooler to do so.

Zieglj01, thank you for the speaker recommendations. How do you guys know which speakers will be good? Is there a specification that you focus on? I see the 200se that ImcLoud recommended have 4" woofers (two of them). That doesn't seem much bigger than the 3" woofer in the Take Classics. Will there still be a significant improvement going to the 200se?

As for the JBL and NHT models, they both contain 6.5" drivers and their frequency response dips all the way down into the 50 Hz range. At that frequency range, do you still need a subwoofer? Will there still be much material left for a receiver to direct to a subwoofer if the speaker can go that low?

What sort of difference can I expect after going to the JBLs, NHTs, or Ascend Acoustics? How will music or movies sound better? Are we talking about a subtle difference or is it something the average person will notice? I'm not really into big, big bass. I would rather have clarity and detail in music and movie dialogue. Bass is good, but I don't want it to be the focus. Thank you for everyone's help.

 

[markw]

Sound quality is determined by the air a speaker can move to disperse sound within that space.

A large room (and you have a large room) requires speakers capable of moving a lot of air.

To move a lot of air in a large rom requires a large speaker. Your Take system is fine or what it is, but it's made for a much smaller room.

In any case, I find a subwoofer is useful for any source tat ha content below 70 - 80 hz and it doesn't have to be overbearing, just there when its needed..

 

[zieglj01]

Zieglj01, thank you for the speaker recommendations. How do you guys know which speakers will be good? Is there a specification that you focus on?

As for the JBL and NHT models, they both contain 6.5" drivers and their frequency response dips all the way down into the 50 Hz range. At that frequency range, do you still need a subwoofer? Will there still be much material left for a receiver to direct to a subwoofer if the speaker can go that low?

What sort of difference can I expect after going to the JBLs, NHTs, or Ascend Acoustics? How will music or movies sound better? Are we talking about a subtle difference or is it something the average person will notice? I'm not really into big, big bass. I would rather have clarity and detail in music and movie dialogue. Bass is good, but I don't want it to be the focus. Thank you for everyone's help.

The receiver with a subwoofer pre-out will have no problem sending a signal to a subwoofer - just confirm
in the receiver that you have the sub connected.

Regardless of how low a speaker is said to go, it is good to crossover before that (60 to 80 hz) - to take some
stress off the receiver and speakers - and to help with a smooth balance and transition.

Speakers can tend to have a different timbre (tone color), and sonic signature - however you still want speakers
that are good with music and not distract or annoy you.

Now it will be a small miracle if the NHT SuperOne 2.1 can play below 50 hz - however, it will play low enough
to crossover nicely to a good subwoofer

Also JBL can make some good sounding stuff - as they seem to have stepped it up, with their better consumer
line of home speakers.

Ascend Acoustics is also known for making good products.

Now people can tell you which ones are the so-called better choice or best - and some will say that they guarantee you,
that this speaker is the best in a certain price range >> However, it all comes down to preference, and choice - no one
can speak for your ears.

There are some nice options out there - and I do not like speakers that distract and annoy me >> I like a nice cohesive
sounding speaker for music and home theater.

A lot of times the differences are not big - a lot of times it is the small and subtle differences, that are still big enough
to the critical nit-picking ear/ears, that are big enough to make the difference in speaker choice and decision.

Whatever looks good and seems to attrack your attention - then buy it for an in home trial period. It will be a big step
up over some twinkle, twinkle little star speakers.

 

[Potstickr]

Is it true that floor standing speakers don't need a subwoofer? Would a set of floor standers be more economical and be able to fill our living room more easily than bookshelves?

In general, how do you know if a speaker is playing material the way it was intended to sound? How do you know that something sounds perfect or is off? I read about "muddy bass", "smearing", or "midrange" but I'm not sure if I've heard any of those in music or movies. I know low equates to bass and highs are probably really high octaves or cymbals or trumpet sounds, but what constitutes good midrange sound? Thank you for the help and explanation.

 

[zieglj01]

Is it true that floor standing speakers don't need a subwoofer? Would a set of floor standers be more economical and be able to fill our living room more easily than bookshelves?

In general, how do you know if a speaker is playing material the way it was intended to sound? How do you know that something sounds perfect or is off? I read about "muddy bass", "smearing", or "midrange" but I'm not sure if I've heard any of those in music or movies. I know low equates to bass and highs are probably really high octaves or cymbals or trumpet sounds, but what constitutes good midrange sound? Thank you for the help and explanation.

No, it is not really true that floor standing speakers do not need a subwoofer - however, some good floor standers
that can really dig low cleanly - will cost a lot more, than most of us care to spend.

A lot of people (and ones on a tight budget) who listen to mainly music - do or can get by with floor standers that
can handle bass to 40 hz

Most economical floor standers tend to have more compromises - and can sound more resonant, compared to some
good bookshelf speakers, around the same price point.

As far as judging speakers that can give the illusion, of a more realistic sound enjoyment experience - that comes
with testing, auditioning and comparing speakers. Now as far as a so-called perfect speaker - it comes down to that
which is close enough for you, based on your budget. Also proper room set-up and placement plays a key part.

The overall best way to test a speaker is in your home, with a 30 day trial period.

One way to audition speakers, is with the music that you like and enjoy. A lot of people experienced or not, can tend
to pick up poor sound. A poor speaker can tend to distract and annoy you and also bring ear fatigue. This is an article
for you to read - and will give some good insight.
Learn the Language of Good Sound

 

[ImcLoud]

The energy speakers are good for a little pc office or bedroom surround system, you are using them for something they are not designed to do...

As far as towers go, IMO you have to spend upwards of $2000 on a pair of towers before they compete with a nice set of bookshelfs and a sub, and in some cases just a nice set of bookshelfs...

I think you issue is the small energy speakers... Step up to something like the 200se's or any of the other capable bookshelfs in this thread and you will see night and day difference...

Another option if you want floorstanders is the AJ pioneers...

 

[PENG]

Is it true that floor standing speakers don't need a subwoofer? Would a set of floor standers be more economical and be able to fill our living room more easily than bookshelves?

In general, how do you know if a speaker is playing material the way it was intended to sound? How do you know that something sounds perfect or is off? I read about "muddy bass", "smearing", or "midrange" but I'm not sure if I've heard any of those in music or movies. I know low equates to bass and highs are probably really high octaves or cymbals or trumpet sounds, but what constitutes good midrange sound? Thank you for the help and explanation.

I would just add to what have already been said by others, that it is easier to tell if a speakers sound way "off" but harder to tell if a good sounding speaker to you is necessarily "playing material the way it was intended to sound". To stretch this to the limit to make a point let's consider the fact that we are not in the original recording venue, be it a studio or a live concert hall, stadium etc., so you really don't know how it would have sounded to you in that environment. I go to live concert a few times a year so I have a general idea how I would like my speakers to sound but only to certain extent. Even in a "live" environment it depends on many factors, one being the location of your seat.

In home trial is relatively speaking a sure bet, but I would also rely heavily on specs and bench test results. Ideally it is better to have subs that offer build-in highly adjustmentable EQ systems. The woofers in the floor standers are highly limited by their locations so more often than not they will have hard time playing the low frequencies accurately though that could be what you prefer regardless.

 

[3db]

Floor standers + sub would be my prefered choice. Good floor standers such as PSB's Image series will play louder and cleaner without as much compression as their bookshelf brethren. Imaging and soundstage of floorstanders will also be on par with bookshelves. Decent floor standing speakers can be had starting around $1000 MSRP.

 

[Potstickr]

Thank you for the advice and input, everyone.

Thank you, zieglj01, for the article. It was a very interesting read! I think I would prefer to experiment with bookshelf speakers for now. How do you audition different speakers? Do stores actually let you try out different speakers, similar to demoing tennis rackets? I imagine places like BestBuy and RC Willey probably are not the places to go, correct? Is it common practice for specialty audio stores to lend out speakers for you to try out? I've never been in a specialty audio store and am not familiar with the typical sales experience.

If I do find a place that carries the brand of bookshelves suggested earlier, and allows me to trial demo them at home, which positions (in the diagram below) would you guys place them? Left and right speakers at position 2 would be the least desirable, from a WAF standpoint. Just to be clear, the pair of bookshelves are meant to replace the left, right, AND center Energy speakers, correct (unless I get all three of the Ascend Acoustics originally suggested)? Thank you, all.

52" TV measures 50" wide (edges of bezel)
Position 1 and 3 = 70" apart (5.8 ft)
Position 2 and 4 = 102" apart (8.5 ft)

 

[3db]

Thank you for the advice and input, everyone.

Thank you, zieglj01, for the article. It was a very interesting read! I think I would prefer to experiment with bookshelf speakers for now. How do you audition different speakers? Do stores actually let you try out different speakers, similar to demoing tennis rackets? I imagine places like BestBuy and RC Willey probably are not the places to go, correct? Is it common practice for specialty audio stores to lend out speakers for you to try out? I've never been in a specialty audio store and am not familiar with the typical sales experience.

If I do find a place that carries the brand of bookshelves suggested earlier, and allows me to trial demo them at home, which positions (in the diagram below) would you guys place them? Left and right speakers at position 2 would be the least desirable, from a WAF standpoint. Just to be clear, the pair of bookshelves are meant to replace the left, right, AND center Energy speakers, correct (unless I get all three of the Ascend Acoustics originally suggested)? Thank you, all.

52" TV measures 50" wide (edges of bezel)
Position 1 and 3 = 70" apart (5.8 ft)
Position 2 and 4 = 102" apart (8.5 ft)

View attachment 13839

After you decide on your speakers, I would get adjustable height speaker stands that can carry the weight of your speakers and place them on either side of the fire place and move the equipment stand to the left hand side of the fireplace. This is my secondary system in teh family room. That's how I tackled the problem.

 

[zieglj01]

The recommended speakers are to get you started - NHT, JBL, Ascend and PSB Image - and I would go
ahead and fire that Energy center at the same time.

If you do not plan or can not rearrange your room - then I would get some dummy stands or buy some
stands for your L/R speakers. I would not worry so much about height when you are dancing. Who are
you looking at the speakers or your wife? > The biggest problem you are having with sound, is them
twinkle, twinkle little star walk-in closet speakers.

If you go to a store or buy online - most all sellers except specialty stores, give you a 15 to 30 day
return period - if online, most will charge for return shipping.

Testing in store will give you an idea or perception of what a speaker can do - however in home/room
is the best way to audition.

As was stated - the speakers recommended will be an ear and eye opener, compared to what you do
have now - and will/can be more enjoyable when you dance.

You want a reality check on sound - listen to Bose, then listen to the speakers that we recommended!

 

[3db]

The recommended speakers are to get you started - NHT, JBL, Ascend - and I would go ahead and
fire that Energy center at the same time.

If you do not plan or can not rearrange your room - then I would get some dummy stands or buy some
stands for your L/R speakers. I would not worry so much about height when you are dancing. Who are
you looking at the speakers or your wife? > The biggest problem you are having with sound, is them
twinkle, twinkle little star walk-in closet speakers.

If you go to a store or buy online - most all sellers except specialty stores, give you a 15 to 30 day
return period - if online, most will charge for return shipping.

Testing in store will give you an idea or perception of what a speaker can do - however in home/room
is the best way to audition.

As was stated - the speakers recommended will be an ear and eye opener, compared to what you do
have now - and will/can be more enjoyable when you dance.

You want a reality check on sound - listen to Bose, then listen to the speakers that we recommended!

The Alpha or Image series by PSB should be added to that list of speakers.

 

[zieglj01]

The Alpha or Image series by PSB should be added to that list of speakers.

You just did. And I edited my post.