Hometheater Do Over..

[donileo]

Ok. So Ive been doing some research as to how to go about replacing my current home theater with something that will be many many times better and would like to start by just asking for suggestions on what speakers and speaker setup to use.

My current setup:
Room Size 14X11X9
Denon 3808CI Receiver
Velodyne VX10 Sub
JBL EC35 Center + 6 JBL SCS160SI Satellite Speakers
As far as my sub and satellites.. they are real super budget but believe it or not Im actually OK with this system. Ive had it for years and really still dont complain too much about the sound quality. Again though, I havent heard of whats new today and my room is very small.


So What im Looking for:
Im looking to definitely Replace my SUB and Satellites and possibly my Center Chanel with something leaps and bounds above it. Most importantly I want the new speakers to be able to fill a very large room in the future like a dedicated (basement) theater room with very loud detailed sound. For this room size lets say a (22X18X10)

Finally I'm really big on bang for the buck but of course want really really good quality as well. In other words I don't want to pay 200 bucks for on-wall speakers if Floor Standing speakers are 200 also and generally are two times better.. Money wise, my total budget for these speakers would be $3-4k and I would say I need speakers that excel very well in movies (surround sound) and music as I listen to both very often.

As a last request could you guys also give me the differences in sound in Bookshelf/Floor Standing speakers vs On-wall speakers.. And the necessity of Dipole/Bi-pole speakers in terms of why we need them for overall SoundQuality?

Thanks alot. Looking forward to your feedback --> Especially @FirstReflection haha. been reading your posts and they seem really really informative.

 

[FirstReflection]

Thanks for the kind words How could I refuse offering a reply?

Alrighty, well unlike many of my other posts where I harp on people about the importance of the room (and it IS important), here we have a situation where you want excellent sound right now in a very small room, but you also want these speakers and sub(s) to perform very well in a large room in the future. That's a good and totally understandable goal. So I won't focus so much on having the speakers and sub match with your current room. Instead, I'll focus on speakers and subs that will work well for your future large room, which might very well mean that they seem a bit unusually large for your current room, but that's the way things go! Sound is just vibrations in the air. And if you want loud sound from a good distance away, you have to be able to really move the air. That's all there is to it! So surface area (more drivers and/or larger drivers) and greater excursion (how far the drivers move in and out...the "stroke" as it were) are your friends when it comes to getting louder output.

Now, let's start with your subwoofer(s). While bass is often the hardest thing to get right in a room, subwoofers themselves are fairly easy to understand. You need enough output to hit the desired loudness in your room. Personally, I go for very flat and linear response right down to 20Hz. I'm less concerned with subsonic frequencies below 20Hz. Other folks really go for subsonic extension down to 16, 12 or 10Hz or even lower. I personally don't care all that much about frequencies that humans literally cannot hear. Many folks swear that we literally feel subsonic frequencies rather than hear them, but all of the fun "hit you in the gut" tactile bass is actually up around 40-50Hz. The super low 18-20Hz tones just feel like a "tingle" and we're even less prone to sensing anything below that. Anywho, I'll leave it up to each individual to decide, but pretty much no one will say that 20Hz extension as a minimum is a "bad" idea

Beyond output and extension, there's transient response - ie. how quickly the bass starts and stops when the signal tells it to. This is where we get into the "character" of the sub. The "quality" of the bass as opposed to just the quantity and how low it goes. Obviously, it's better if the bass starts and stops exactly as the signal tells it to. The room plays a big part in this that the subwoofer itself cannot really control. But, as you would expect, it's better to start with a sub that starts and stops on a dime itself. You'll have to use passive room treatments to take care of any resonance that is coming from the room's acoustics and construction.

So obviously, in your current room, you don't need a ton of output. But your future 4000+ cubic foot room will! So we have to think ahead and go for a sub that will work well in that future room.

Given your current small room, the standard BIG box subs that we all love so much around here might be a bit of a placement nightmare! Especially if you get a pair! For that reason, I really think you should strongly consider one or a pair of the SVSound cylinder subs. With your current budget and the expectation of a 4000-ish cubic foot room in the future, the model that would make the most sense is:

SVSound PC12-Plus . And just a single sub for now. A pair would be $2600 delivered, which eats up too much of your budget right now. I'd LOVE to get you a pair of subs right now. Small rooms can actually benefit MORE from multiple subs since the bass reflections in a small room are so strong and you end up with so many peaks and dips from those strong reflections.

The PC12-Plus is clearly overkill for your current room size. But it's got the sort of output you'll need in a 4000 cubic foot room in the future. If you can swing $400, even the PC13-Ultra wouldn't be a bad idea! But the Plus is the better balance of price and necessary output. It just fits the bill nicely.

The small footprint makes the cylinder subs a great choice for a small room. You also have the option to lay the cylinder subs down on their sides, which makes them easy to tuck behind a couch or along the edge of a wall or below your screen if you don't want the tall cylinder standing up in a corner

So with the sub taken care of, you've got around $1700-$2700 left in your budget for new speakers. Before we get to that, if you ARE ok with a very large box for your subwoofer, there are certainly alternatives. For a future 4000 cubic foot room, I wouldn't go any lower in terms of output than:

- HSU VTF-3 MK4 : a great, very reasonably priced performer with a lot of adjustment capability in terms of output and extension. The standard black version is currently on sale, which means you might even be able to get a pair, which would be awesome if you can physically fit a pair of these large boxes in your current room!

- Outlaw LFM-1 EX : basically a clone of the HSU VTF-3 MK3 that the VTF-3 MK4 just replaced. With the current sale on the VTF-3 MK4, there's not much reason to go for the LFM-1 EX at the moment. But Outlaw ran a sale a couple of months ago that made the LFM-1 EX a superb value, so if a sale like that comes around again and you're not buying right away, it's good to keep this model in mind

- SVSound PB12-NSD or PC12-NSD : the VTF-3 MK4, Outlaw LFM-1 EX and SVS PB/PC12-NSD all play in the same ballpark in terms of output. All of them will cope with a 4000 cubic foot space, but ideally, I'd personally want a bit more output capability for headroom. You'd be pushing the limits with any of these three subs. The PB/PC12-NSD is the most linear of the bunch down to 20Hz, but then it drops off like a cliff below that. So if you want any sort of subsonic output, the VTF-3 MK4 is actually the better option. A pair of any of them is a terrific value. Like I say, they'll all cope ok in a large, future room. I'd just feel more comfortable with a bit more output capability like the PC12-Plus offers.

So some higher output options:

- HSU VTF-15H : pretty much the lowest price for a really high output sub. Not really my personal favorite. When I heard it, it had a bit of a 40Hz-ish hump and a bit of a low end roll-off. But a bit of EQ and some careful room placement - especially with a pair - can remedy those minor complaints, so there's no questioning the value. Really, the only big gripe in your case is that it's a very BIG box, which honestly might be a problem in your current room.

- Rythmik FV15HP : here's your output champ if you can handle the physical size, can pay a bit more than the PC12-Plus, but don't want to pay quite as much as the PC13-Ultra. In terms of 20Hz output, it's basically neck-and-neck with the SVSound Plus models. But it has higher output capabilities above 20Hz, even slightly higher than the Ultra SVS models, so it can REALLY "hit you in the gut" in that 40-50Hz region if you're after that sort of tactile impact!

Anywho, that's more than enough options to make your head spin. Hopefully, I've provided the info to help you decide If you can make a pair of subs happen, definitely go for it. They'll help you a lot in your current, small room

continued...

 

[FirstReflection]

Now...on to speakers.

Very often, manufacturers use the tower form factor to make their speakers play lower. Just purely from a physical standpoint, a bookshelf speaker is going to have less bass output. It's a smaller box with a shorter port (or no port) and often fewer drivers and thus, less surface area.

The thing is, I am solidly in the camp of using subwoofers to handle the bass and speakers to handle the higher frequencies. I don't see any need for "full range" speakers. In fact, due to the way bass frequencies interact so heavily with the room, I find it BETTER to NOT have full range speakers. It's rare that the best positions for bass are the same as the best positions for proper imaging and soundstage from the higher frequencies. So to me, the better solution is to let subwoofers handle the bass and focus on speakers that play nice and linear and flat down to 80Hz and then have a gradual roll off that will work perfectly with the 2nd order slope applied by any modern receiver in the bass management. The 2nd order slope from the receiver below 80Hz should "cascade" with the natural roll off of the speakers below 80Hz to create something close to a 4th order slope below 80Hz so that you get a nice cross-over to the sub. It's easier said than done

Now, let's look at some speaker options:

- The first one that instantly comes to mind is the EMPTek E55Ti package - available from the Audioholics Store at a terrific price in either Red Burl or Gloss Black :

What I adore about the EMP E55Ti speakers is that EMP wisely (IMO) used the larger tower size and greater number of drivers to allow for LOUDER playback, not just lower extension. EMP is a sub-brand of RBH Sound. And like all RBH speakers, the EMPTek speakers absolutely NAIL the midrange.

In terms of speakers that can play LOUD, look amazing, are affordable, and sound terrific, you really can't do any better than these.

You'll notice the very large center E56Ti speaker. It might look a bit out of place in your current room, but it'll be a godsend in a future, large room.

You'll also notice the bi-pole surround speakers. You asked about di-pole and bi-pole speakers vs. regular mono-pole speakers for the surround positions. When you go to the movie theater, you'll notice that there are lots of surround speakers on both side walls, and several on the back wall as well. Surround effects are not meant to be "pin point" accurate the way sounds coming from the front are meant to be. Instead, surround effects are meant to "envelop" the audience and "blanket" them in sound, with occassional discrete sounds that come from "somewhere over there", but not a pin point location. The idea is that you should be aware of sounds coming from all around you, but not to the point that your eyes are drawn away from the screen up front.

Regular mono-pole speakers placed at ear level are too directional. They draw too much attention to themselves in a home theater. And yet, this is what a lot of people want and expect. They want "back" speakers that are really easy to pin point and hear. But that's not really the way soundtracks are supposed to be heard. You're meant to recreate the theater experience, which is many speakers that are high up above you.

Moving monopole speakers so that they are 2-3 feet above your head while sitting and firing across the room, but not directly at the listeners is an improvement for home theaters. But if you really want to recreate the diffuse, enveloping effect from the theater, that's where di and bi-pole speakers come in.

Bi-pole speakers literally act as two speakers instead of one. Both sides of the speaker play at the same time. One fires at a forward angle, the other at a backward angle. So you get sound bouncing around the room and acting more like the multiple speakers from the movie theater.

Di-pole speakers go even further. The two sides fire out of phase. When one side is pushing out, the other side is pulling in and vice versa. This creates a "null" where the sound cancels, right at the mid-point between the two sides of drivers. The idea is that you place this "null" mid-point directly to the sides of the seat so that you are sitting in this "null". That way, you don't get ANY direct sound. All you get are the sounds that first fire forward and backward and bounce around the room. This is the closest experience to the full sized movie theater. But many people don't like such a diffuse sound at home.

Bi-poles are a good compromise and they are very flexible in terms of placement. Just get them up high - about 2-3 feet above your head when sitting. You can have them directly to either side, slightly behind you on the side walls, or on the back walls. They're very forgiving of placement. They'll always deliver a more diffuse sound than monopole surround speakers, but they have no "null"

You'll also notice that you get a subwoofer with this package - and at the package price, you're essentially getting it for free!

You have some options. You could sell that sub to get even more funds so that you can afford a pair of higher output subs. You could use the EMP sub in another room. Or you could just use the EMP sub for now, save a lot of money, and have more money later for that future room!

I like this package a lot for your price range. It's got everything you're after at a price you can afford and the speakers even LOOK great - lol

And since it's me, rather than suggesting even more expensive speakers, I'd highly recommend putting any money you have left in your budget towards room treatments.

For one thing, I consider decoupling a MUST for subwoofers AND tower speakers. It gets debated somewhat - strangely, most often by people who've never actually used decoupling devices. Some folks don't like the Auralex GRAMMA , Great GRAMMA and SubDude platforms that I most often recommend, simply because they think the $50 price tag is too high. Certainly, you can make your own decoupling platforms for less if you like. Personally, I think $50 is fine, but I can understand wanting to pay less.

Folks should also decouple center and bookshelf speakers IMO. It's rather easy to make TV stands, shelves or speaker stands vibrate and rattle. Decoupling eliminates that. Now I DO think the Auralex MoPads are grossly overpriced. I also like something a little more secure, so I like IsoNodes for decoupling center and bookshelf speakers. The claims on the IsoNodes website are ridiculous, but they work great as speaker decouplers

For the rest of your room, focus on bass traps and absorption on the front wall (behind the front speakers) and first reflection points on the side walls and ceiling (see where my screen name came from? ) My favorite room kits from GiK Acoustics give you everything you need at a great price. I especially like Package #2.

Gik also has terrific diffusion panels . Put these on the side walls and back walls behind the seating position to really help those surround effects envelop and blanket the listeners in your room!

If you don't want to go for plain, single solid color panels, GiK offers their "ArtPanel" although they're a bit pricey. For printed panels, the better value is over at Acoustimac . Acoustimac offers printed bass traps as well, so they're a superb source if you want pictures, posters or art that also doubles as excellent acoustic treatments!

 

[FirstReflection]

Finally, I'll point out something that a lot of people overlook, which is battery backup power protection! If you have a DVR, a battery backup will allow your DVR to keep recording, even if a blackout happens! I LOVE that my recordings do not get interrupted! If you have anything with a cooling fan or especially a projector with a bulb - a battery backup keeps the fan spinning and the bulb cool, giving you time to safely shut things down rather than having them overheat! If you have anything with a spinning hard drive, a battery backup gives you time to safely shut down.

So to me, battery backup is another MUST. And the company to trust for battery backup UPS power protection is APC.

You can check out APC AV for the full line of APC power protection products for the home theater. You'll want to focus on the "J Type" and "S Type" units for battery backup.

The "J Type" are the ones I'd recommend for reasonable prices, long battery life and excellent all around power protection. The J25B is a terrific value for most home theaters. You get 6 battery protected outlets and 2 standard surge protected outlets (no battery on those two). The J35B adds voltage regulation and longer battery life.

And I have the J15, which despite the lower model number, is actually a higher end unit (it's older, so that's where the model number thing came from ) The J15 offers 12 outlets, ALL battery protected, and similar battery life to the J35B.

The more expensive "S Type" units use a more sophisticated battery that outputs a true sine wave AC signal, rather than a stepped sine wave that the J type units output. If you're using gear with vacuum tubes or really finicky motors, the pure sine wave output is something that some people claim helps. I've never had any isses with my J15, but I'm just using regular consumer electronics, so who knows?

The best prices on the J25B, J35B and J15BLK change, it seems, so just use a Google Product Search to find the best price going.

Hope that helps!

Oh, and you said you've read some of my other posts. Poke around my posts from the subwoofer boards to read all about getting some measurement gear and possibly an outboard EQ. It's vital to be able to measure your in room frequency response so that you can really fine tune your subwoofers and get nice, linear, flat response at all of your seats! No way to really do it without measuring

This thread here and this post in particular describes the products you can use to measure your in room response for a very reasonable price

 

[cpp]

Good advice.

PS for IsoNodes just get a couple of handballs and cut them in half. Same rigidity.

 

[donileo]

Thank you very Much FirstReflection and CPP. I just purchased the setup from EMPTEk with the two high towers. However now I am wondering.. Considering the low end is not the specialty of this speaker and the towers (E55ti) have 3 low freq speakers. I was thinking why not get the the EMPTek E5Ci Center Channel Speaker which has the same mid and high speakers of the towers and use these as my left and right (in the vertical position)? Save money,extra space, and get rid of unnecessary speakers in the design of the towers?

Will this give me the same audio quality or am i just destroying the sound by going this way?

Please see this as well :
forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=89614

 

[FirstReflection]

The EMP E5Ci cannot match the output of the E55Ti towers or the larger E56Ci center. The upper bass starts at 160Hz, which is roughly where the three 6.5" drivers in the towers take over. The two 6.5" drivers in the E56Ti Center take over much higher in that speaker.

So you've got at least a full octave where the E55Ti towers and E56Ci center are capable of MUCH more output than the smaller E5Ci center, which frees up the midrange and tweeter drivers to deliver more output as well.

The E55Ti and E56Ci speakers can accept considerably more amplifier power than the E5Ci center as a result.

To make a long story short - even though you don't need the output capabilities right now in your small room, and even though the E55Ti towers and E56Ci center might look a bit large and out of place in your small room, stick with them! You'll need their output capabilites in your large room in the future. The E5Ci Center simply cannot stack up.

As I mentioned, EMP uses the extra 6.5" drivers to play louder more than to play lower. You can't just eliminate all of that surface area and expect to get the same sort of output from the much smaller E5Ci Center

 

[donileo]

Ok cool. Thanks. Now in regards to the bipole speakers, am I going to need two more for the rears? The package I bought only comes with two which I am assuming are for the side.Will I need a separate amp to drive the speakers good when im finally in the bigger room ?

 

[FirstReflection]

For your current room size, you definitely do not need 6th and 7th surround back speakers. 5 speakers is optimal in your current small room. And you'll want to put the two bi-pole E55Wi surround speakers up high (about 2-3 feet above seated height) on the side walls. With bi-poles, you'll get the best effect if they are on the side walls and just slightly behind your seating position.

When you get to the much larger room, you might have enough space behind your seats for the 6th and 7th surround back speakers to make sense in a 7.2 speaker setup. Personally, I prefer the THX suggested speaker setup, which is to use regular monopole speakers for the surround back positions. So you could just add a pair of the E5Bi bookshelf speakers

 

[lsiberian]

For surrounds you don't need to match brands so you might consider the JBL cinema level surrounds for cheaper. I am not a fan of dipole surrounds since most content is mastered for monopolar speakers. Horns will give the surround field a wider dispersion than the domes on that dipole.

JBL 8320 Compact Cinema Surround Speakers (Pair) 8320 B&H Photo

I can understand if you want to do a matching thing from and aesthetics POV.

In small rooms I've actually found 4 surrounds to be preferable given enough space between the seating and wall. I don't think it's worth 500 dollars though. You'd be better off getting a pair of Kefs http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFHTS10012GBWBRKT/KEF-Hts1001.2-Bookshelf-Speaker-w/Wall-Bracket-Each-Gloss-Black/1.html

and putting your money in the sub instead.

 

[donileo]

So an update... i Bought the EMPTek Speakers as recommended and here is a brief review. The towers themselves were actually pretty good, very airy and super loud with very very low distortion. After listening to them I felt they were missing out a quite a bit on the midrange and also on the highs; but overall the sound signature was very good. Rating wise Id give the towers a 3.8/5. To my surprise, taking the grills of the towers COMPLETELY changed the towers and they gained highs and bit more mids. They also became even more airy, they sounded GREAT. With the grills off the towers are really good speakers and I'd probably give them a 4.2/5. The Center Channel (E56Ci) is what I was disappointed with. So as I mentioned previously I have a JBL EC35 and as soon as I switched over to the EmpTek my first feeling is that the center disappeared. Disappeared in the sense that the voices were less clear and forward as well as almost all the instruments. So I started to do A/B 'in between the two and I came to the conclusion that my old JBL EC35 sounded better. For sure the sensitivity on the JBL EC35 is 91dB so less power is needed to drive this but on equal sound levels the voices and mids were better on my old JBL . Highs were slightly better on the EMPTek Center. Honestly, seeing as how the EmpT Center was so much bigger, heavier, and more expensive this was a big disappointment and it made me question the quality of the drivers in all the EMPTek speakers. Its for that reason, that I returned them and then went and bought the Grand Verus Speakers from Aperion Audio..

Now for the Grand Verus Brief Review:

Again.. The voices on my JBL EC35 still sound better than even the $700 Grand Verus Center I bought. The difference I hear is that somehow the voices sound with depth and as if the person is in the room with you. On the EMP and Aperion Center they sound as if they are locked within a box (tinyer). Again this was a major disappointment for me as its making me sad that $500-$700 Centers are not overall better then a $100 Center on Ebay/Craigslist today . I definitely noticed that the Grand Verus Center has much better highs + added musical detail over my old JBL. Also voice quality wise the grand verus is closer to my JBL than the EMP and the added voice detail in my JBL is not TOOO too much. but again this doesnt justify a $600 price difference in the centers. This also leaves me with the question whats the best center channel out there, because im really looking for something 2X better than my JBL and im starting to wonder if that will be possible..

As far as the grand verus bookshelfs, I havent installed them yet as I was just simply doing Center to Center A/B testing. But Ill give a brief review once I do that.

 

[fuzz092888]

I think, depending on your aesthetic tastes, that it may be worth it to think about using a bookshelf for a center. There are a ton of good speakers out there and bookshelves can make great centers as well.

SongCenter home

SongSurround Overview/Pricing

HTS - home

CAOW1 - home

35CC

MF7

http://totemacoustic.com/en/hi-fi/center-channels/

http://totemacoustic.com/en/hi-fi/compact/

I've heard the totems bookshelves before and I can say that I wouldn't mind using one as a center channel. The others, I've heard good things about and they're right around or under your price range I think with the exception of one or two. Just some links to explore and things to think about.

 

[FirstReflection]

whoo boy...

Sorry I didn't notice your update right away. I remember recommending the EMPTek E55Ti package to you, so I feel responsibility for your disappointment. It's unfortunate that you returned them so quickly without discussing what you were hearing. On the other hand, reading your comments about the Aperion Verus Grand speakers helps to confirm what I would have tried to help you with in regards to your disappointment with the EMP speakers.

This is a common problem when people are upgrading to high quality audio equipment. The expectation for a lot of people is that they're going to plug in their new speakers or other audio gear and immediately be "blown away" by the improvement over their previous, typically less expensive gear. We've sort of all been trained to believe that things should be very simple, very user friendly, work easily out of the box with no instructions and just be "plug and play". It's nice when things ARE that way. Unfortunately, when it comes to audio reproduction, things just aren't that simple.

The problem is that a speaker's performance is not isolated just to what the speaker is doing. An audio system is just that - a system

A person is going to reasonably think that they should be able to remove their old speaker, put the new speaker in its place, fire things up - and if the new speaker is "better" than the old speaker, they'll hear it right away. I can totally understand that logic and expectation. But unfortunately, that's not the way audio reproduction works.

Let's consider three or four very important factors:

1) You've got the speaker's actual output. What defines a "good" speaker, or one speaker being "better" than another. Well the truth is that unlike video, audio doesn't really have any specific industry standards. You can't point to a measurement and say whether it matches the industry spec or not because no such spec exists! But there are widely accepted "best practices" for what constitutes "good sound".

In general, we're looking for linear (aka "flat") frequency response when facing the speaker's front dead on. It's generally considered a good thing when the frequency response remains linear within a fairly wide "window" of around 30 to 45 degrees so that the speakers don't have to be aimed like a lazer beam at your ears and so that a wider seating area can receive linear output. Opinions vary as to what is best further to the sides of this "listening window". Some folks think it's best for the output to remain as linear as possible no matter how far off center you measure - some even going so far as to think a perfect cylinder or sphere of linear output is ideal. Others believe a natural roll off - typically mostly in the high frequencies - as you go further and further to the side is "better". Regardless, this is called the "dispersion" of the speaker. The wider the dispersion, the wider that "window" of linear sound will be. Some speakers have very narrow dispersion where only a very tight window has linear output and outside of that tight window, the frequency response changes quite a bit. Such speaker do act a bit like a "lazer beam" of sound, and some people like that!

We're also going to look for a lack of distortion. Essentially, whatever recording you are listening to is sending out a signal. And that signal is telling the speaker to play a certain note for a certain length of time at a certain loudness. Any deviation between what the signal tells the speaker to play and what the speaker actually plays is a form of distortion. Maybe the speaker is not accurate and it doesn't quite play the correct note. Maybe the speaker plays the correct note, but also produces other notes at the same time that the signal did not say to play (typically a harmonic of the intended note, which is harmonic distortion - or the cabinet of the speaker might resonate, creating unintended sound). Maybe the speaker plays the right note, but it plays it too loud or too quiet. Or maybe the speaker continues to make sound even after the signal told it to stop, or it doesn't make the sound immediately the instant the signal told it to.

So let's say a speaker has low distortion (of all types) and has the generally well accepted wide dispersion and linear output. That would be widely considered a "good" speaker. Empirically, it's producing the sound that the signal in the recording is telling it to, and it's casting out that sound over a fairly wide and uniform "window" in front of it. Does that mean you're going to hear this "good" sound?

Not necessarily!

Here comes the second HUGE part of the audio system, which is the room and the placement of the speakers and the seats within that room. Sound bounces and reflects off of surfaces. Other surfaces in the room can start to move in sympathy with the sound waves or physical vibrations and essentially become "speakers" themselves as they further agitate the air with their movement. And there is ambient noise to consider as well.

But the largest concern are all those reflections. When we're talking about that "good" speaker I've described above, that's when the speaker is all by itself. No reflections. Just what the speaker is producing. But put that "good" speaker in a room, and now what reaches your ears is a combination of the speaker's actual output, plus all of the reflections off of every surface in your room! And the closer the surfaces are to the speaker, the stronger the reflections will be, since sound waves get weaker and weaker the further they travel.

Finally, we have the listener's preference and what the listener is used to and what the listener expects. People very often do not actually prefer accurate sound. Very often, people have grown accustomed to very inaccurate sound. So to them, accurate sound seems "worse". This is VERY often the case with bass. Many, many people prefer "car audio" bass, which is ridiculously overblown in loudness and laiden with massive amounts of distortion. Many people are used to a subwoofer that was producing lots of distortion. The funny thing about distortion is that we tend to perceive higher distortion as being "louder". When a distortion free sound is heard, it doesn't seem to get "louder", it seems to get "closer" as you turn up the volume dial.

When it comes to whether or not dialogue sounds clear and easy to understand, if you are using a "good" speaker and dialogue doesn't sound clear, it is pretty much always a case of strong reflections messing up the sound. Lots of people have their seat back pushed right up against the back wall, which is a nightmare for dialogue clarity as the strong reflection off the wall behind the listener messes up the sound. Many people also have their center speaker placed inside a cabinet or shelf, or they have it on a table top or shelf, but pushed back so that part of the shelf is in front of the speaker. This creates a very strong reflection off of that portion of the shelf, which messes up the sound.

So I will say this to you:

The EMPTek E55Ti and E56Ci speakers are empirically "good" speakers. The Aperion Verus Grand are empirically even "better" (lower in distortion and more linear and accurate). The fact that you found both to be disappointing definitely indicates that you either had some rather severe problems with placement and/or room acoustics, or you have simply become so used to the sound of your old speakers that hearing accurate sound isn't what you expected or wanted. And on top of all that, there is the entire other factor of proper set up and calibration with your receiver! If the bass management, relative output levels and phase (set by the distance setting) are not calibrated correctly, that can have a tremendous effect on what you hear at your seat. Not to mention that the position of your seat itself could be a potential problem as well.

Ultimately, being happy with what you hear is all that matters. If you go through the steps of addressing room acoustics, placement of the speakers and seats, proper setup and calibration of your system, and you achieve accurate response at your seat and you still do not like what you hear - that's ok! You're not required to prefer accurate sound and all that matters is you being happy.

But what I'm trying to convey to you here is that the speakers are only one part of the puzzle. Too much "blame" is being assigned to just the speakers without consideration for all the other factors that make audio such a complex and interesting hobby!

If you're thinking the EMPTek and Aperion Verus Grand speakers are not clear, accurate, "good" sounding, and "better" than your old speakers, then something is not right. You've already bought and returned some very "good" speakers. And now you have even "better" speakers. So some other part of your audio system is the problem. It could just be your preference and what you're used to. But honestly, the things you've described about the mid-range of the EMP towers "missing out" and the dialogue being harder to understand with both the E56Ci and Aperion Verus Grand Center - those things just do not jibe at all with the actual output of the speakers themselves. So that tells me, you've got room acoustic issues, placement issues, setup & calibration issues - and probably a combination of all of the above. Throw in some inexperience with accurate, distortion-free sound and it's easy to understand your initial disappointment. Hopefully, you'll come around to accepting that speakers are not "plug and play" and we'll be able to help you get all the other, important parts of your audio system squared away so that you get to enjoy what your excellent speakers can really do!

 

[donileo]

Hey @FirstReflection and Everyone else reading this post. Thanks for the posts and the feedback. I know its been awhile but I thought itd be informative if I keep posting more information on my findings here.

So again the EmpTek recommendation by @FirstReflection was actually great. I think for what I was/still am looking for, these speakers are a GREAT Bang for the buck. I do agree with you, that room placement and the fact that I might be accustomed to non-linear sound may affect my opinion of what I heard from the e56Ci center/verus grand center vs my old JBL center EC35. However no.. im sorry and even disappointed to say that my ears Do NOT lie lol. Let me be a bit more brief and clear in what I heard..

MY JBL EC35- Lacks in Cymbals, Detailed Highs. Mids are good.Plays loud with low distortion. Voices have depth and oomph and this is the biggest difference I heard. They Sound Natural. Even CNET's old review of these speakers which is why I bought them said the voice detail on these is SPOT ON I would have to agree. Though I feel there has to be a better center out there!

the EMPTek E56cI- Lacked in mids and highs, even more than my JBL. Overall loudness seemed less than the ec35 most likely due to the sensitivity being less. But again, in the voices is where the detail sounded TINY. Playing Michael Jackson, Human Nature on the EC35 sounded like he was in the room vs playing the e56Ci. Certain parts you can even tell like the oomph / breathing in his voice, this added depth to his voice and the sound was much more open. I could never hear this in the e56Ci. Not just on voices but in certain instruments as well. In Thievery Corporation - Weightless, the difference in the sound of the drum sticks at the beginning of the song has more depth and sounded more true of the actual sound. The E56Ci again sounded tiny on this.. Like smaller speakers. How did I demo them between the e56Ci and my JBL? Just switching speakers in and out. All settings on my reciever didnt change except for giving the e56Ci a bit more volume due to less sensitivity. Speakers were also directly in front of me at slightly above ear level.

Now the Verus Grand $700 Center- Highs were a lot lot better then both my JBL and the E56Ci center. The high/cymbals clarity was sharp. Voices also sounded better then the EMP but still less than my JBL. My JBL voices in my ears cannot be matched yet. I know Call me Crazy . Im starting to think i Must be considering I dont understand how I still prefer my Ec35 over this center, since paying $700 for better cymbals/high does not justify that kind of money.

Finally and this may the most shocking to everyone but Here is my experience with the Verus Grande Bookshelves. The speakers are Huge (for bookshelves) and their build quality is Excellent. Very nice looking speakers. Going from the EMPTek 55Ti towers to these bookshelves what did I find? These bookshelves have again better highs and more detail than the E55Ti towers. But they lacked the airyness in the towers. Playing music through the e55Towers gave a feeling like music was being pushed to your face which I kinda liked . The sound seemed to envelop you more with the empTowers. This is most likely a feature of towers though and why I definitely think I like towers more the bookshelves. The towers also played a lot lower and accentuated my Velodyne Vx100 subwoofer very nicely.

Now the shocking part. So I started cranking up the volume on my Denon 3808CI reciever to drive the Verus Grand bookshelves. Everything sounded nice, UNTIL, lo and behold at around -12db to -10db the Bass on the speakers started breaking out! I could NOT push these higher then that because I thought I was going to damage the speakers.The bass woofer on the bookshelves started to experience heavy distortion and sounded like the cones were breaking. I dont know how to describe this sound and I wish I could find an audio clip of it on youtube but hearing this shocked me on these $600/pair speakers. Not only that it made me question how the hell is Aperion Audio shipping speakers like that? Are they not playing Rap or Bass Heavy music on their Speakers during Testing?

Just to let you guys know, Can anyone else here with these speakers playing bass heavy music and take them loud to see if they hear what I see. I called Aperion Audio and they Could NOT explain to me why this happened. They tried to tell me the bookshelves were defective but I really doubt this as it Happened on Two different bookshelves. Same way, same method, same track. I tried this on my old JBL speakers NO bass distortion at extremely high levels and I am probably going to blame the fact that Aperions Crossover is not doing a good job.

Not only that but the speakers were set to small on my receiver and the crossovers set to 80hz. I then set the crossover to 100hz.. STILL the same problem! After this occurrence, all this leaves me wondering is?? I am Crazy.. Honestly I know you guys must be reading my posts and thinking WTF? But Im only here stating the truth and what Ive found. If someone else can backup my findings especially on this Itd be the BEST!

After talking to Aperion Audio and nothing really being able to be done about it? What did I do at the end of it all? Send all the Speakers Back.. Center and Bookshelves. In the meanwhile im still on the search for the speaker system I will be happy with, and I really do believe I will find it.

Next Im looking to try the Triton II's

Thanks Guys, and looking to your feedback.