Home Theater without subs?

3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Regardless of what is producing the bass be it sub or TL speaker, the output below the Schraeder frequency is at the mercy of room dimensions. Denying this is fool's folly and no pair of speaker can overcome the nodes and peaks of a room's dimensions unless their placement was designed into the room's dimensions.

AccuDefTechGuy, I suggest reading Dr Toole's book on acoustics. Consider yourself lucky my friend for not having bass problems with your towers. You got lucky with your speaker placement with respect to your listening area and room dimensions.

I could place your speakers in my travel trailer where I have my sub located and if I walked to the TV screen, the bass would vanish just as it does for my sub.. Luckly for me, I dont sit inches from my screen but about 8 ft back and at that location, I get plenty of bass. Placement of subs in a room given room geometry/dimensions matters. Its got everything to do with physics and nothing to do with jealousy.
 
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K

kevintomb

Junior Audioholic
Pretty sure he was referring to ADTG's setup, not yours.
Yeah this whole thread has become tiring. lol...Ive lost track of who I even replied to honestly, but KNOW for sure the one I replied to was a smaller speaker sitting on a SEPARATE subwoofer.

They were SOLD as separate parts.....o_Oo_Oo_Oo_O
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
To the OP, there has been a lot misinformation generated in this thread. The key factor about getting good bass response from towers has been overlooked and that is placement with respect to the listener position as bass response is ALL about room dimensions/geometry. If you find it a little too weak compared to your subs, trying moving the speakers around a little, or the listener position or both.

TLS, I'm surprised that you think that towers are ideal compared to that of standmount and sub when you know full the affects of room geometry/dimensions on frequencies below the Schraeder frequency. You are promoting a fools folly. I belive that sub based systems you heard are a mess but you conviently skipped over the real problem, the owners taking the time to integrate sub and system into the room.

There have been endless discussions and threads about the trade offs of towers verses stand mounts and subs. The biggest trade off mentioned about towers is placement because RARELY does good speaker placement for the mids and trebles align with good bass response. There is always a compromise there. That compromise is substantially mitigated by the flexibility of placing subs independent of the standmounts. Based on this fact alone, towers are very seldom ideal. LoveintheHD was quite correct.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi

Ummmmmm……… jus sayin
What are you saying? That you don't want a +10dB bass boost? I thought you love subwoofer bass?

Don't tell me you're just a +3dB bass-boost guy? :D

That's a 10dB bass-boost PEAK on purpose using manual PEQ, which is what I Want.

Sure, I could lower that bass boost to +3dB. But No, I want 10dB Peak, dammit! :D

10dB Bass Boost:
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
What are you saying? That you don't want a +10dB bass boost? I thought you love subwoofer bass?

Don't tell me you're just a +3dB bass-boost guy? :D

That's a 10dB bass-boost PEAK on purpose using manual PEQ, which is what I Want.

Sure, I could lower that bass boost to +3dB. But No, I want 10dB Peak, dammit! :D

10dB Bass Boost:
Lol. You mean midbass boost?
No, I’m saying you’re leaving a LOT on the table below 40hz. I mean why even have those subs anyway??? you’re not even using them!!!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Lol. You mean midbass boost?
No, I’m saying you’re leaving a LOT on the table below 40hz. I mean why even have those subs anyway??? you’re not even using them!!!
Because I can't hear much below 30Hz (or above 15kHz). That's why I only EQ bass boost from 40Hz-80Hz. I don't care for bass that I can't hear.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Because I can't hear much below 30Hz (or above 15kHz). That's why I only EQ bass boost from 40Hz-80Hz. I don't care for bass that I can't hear.
Ok. Didn’t expect that for an answer. Honest curiosity. Is that a hearing disorder? I know a lot of low bass is more tactile but imo/ime there’s a lot of content below 40 that you’re missing out on. Unless of course you don’t know it’s there… that would be unfortunate.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
The Harmon curve (I don't know why they call it the Harmon Curve) has a 10db of boost between 20 and 30 Hz and then drops linearily by 10db by the time it reaches a 100Hz. I've implemented this in my two systems that have a MiniDSP in them and the bass sounds really good and natural for both music and HT. Now for HT, I increase the bass again by a couple more db on the AVR side just for that added kick to the pants.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
The Harmon curve (I don't know why they call it the Harmon Curve) has a 10db of boost between 20 and 30 Hz and then drops linearily by 10db by the time it reaches a 100Hz. I've implemented this in my two systems that have a MiniDSP in them and the bass sounds really good and natural for both music and HT. Now for HT, I increase the bass again by a couple more db on the AVR side just for that added kick to the pants.
I’ve always liked that type of house curve too. I’ve seen the rise down to 20(or below) usually start at 200hz but the effects are similar. In my room very smooth deep bass
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Ok. Didn’t expect that for an answer. Honest curiosity. Is that a hearing disorder? I know a lot of low bass is more tactile but imo/ime there’s a lot of content below 40 that you’re missing out on. Unless of course you don’t know it’s there… that would be unfortunate.
The lowest note on my piano is 27.5Hz, and I can hardly hear that.

But 40Hz-100Hz is where most of the "SLAM" bass is, which is what I am after.

And FYI, "Mid-bass" is 200Hz to 500Hz, not 40Hz-80Hz.

.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
The lowest note on the piano is 27.5Hz, and I can hardly hear that.

But 40Hz-100Hz is where most of the "SLAM" bass is, which is what I am after.
Hey if it works it works. I’ve been fortunate in that I can have that PLUS extension down to about 14hz. You know, to shake the couch!
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
My late wife could hear an earthquake coming before she felt it and would tell me..we're going to have a quake and seconds later, we shaking and rolling.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
My late wife could hear an earthquake coming before she felt it and would tell me..we're going to have a quake and seconds later, we shaking and rolling.
As for me, I can't even tell when we have an earthquake.

My wife would come to my HT room and says, "Did you feel that earthquake?"

And I would say, "What earthquake?" :eek: :D
 
F

felipe

Audioholic
Agreed. I would have to say that there are a whole lot of situations out there where people would have been better served with the bass of tower speakers than subwoofers. You get smoother bass since the low-frequencies are emanating from two different points in the room, and you get much better integrated bass since the end-user is not tasked with calibrating the subwoofer. Many people do not do a great job of blending the sub in with the main speakers. Tower speakers can often do it perfectly. A lot of people think they need subs, but they very rarely take advantage of the headroom or bass extension that subs can provide. I also think that a simple pair of tower speakers has a better spouse approval factor than two bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer. Subwoofers rank pretty low on the spouse approval factor scale.
Agreed shadyJ. When I had my SB1000 pros, I always had a dip at the crossover point no matter what I tried (it was a somewhat high Q, but a dip non-the-less). Now with the towers, I have a noticeably more cohesive bass response and the dip is no longer present. Like it was stated before by MalVeauX, in a non-dedicated room, Towers rule :)
 
F

felipe

Audioholic
Surely you can't be serious?!? I am serious, and don't call me Shirley!

I think you're really asking about a setup with no subs and mains that don't go below about 35 Hz.

It depends on the mains and the movies. I tend to watch a lot action and sci fi movies with a lot bass. 35 Hz is marginal for these types of movies (just my opinion, if someone else is okay with it more power to em).

Part of the reason you don't miss the bass that much is that the SVS SB 1000s didn't have that much to begin with! You underestimate the power of the dark side of real bass! (that's just a little Audioholics sub smack talk ;))(you did kind of ask for it)

I'd have to concede, though, that getting subs to play nice with bookshelves at the crossover can be a challenge. Soooo, where I'm going with this is that the monster RBH towers are actually near the top of my upgrade wish list for the one system I have that is not too restricted by space and WAF issues.
Shirley!!! Lol just kiddin around ;). Yep, I haven't experienced the power of the dark side of real bass (small condo living and the Mrs. keeps me from it :rolleyes:). But, I hope in time when space and budget and the Mrs. allows, I can experience the full power of the real bass dark side!
 
F

felipe

Audioholic
If one is forced into a situation with no subs, then one has no choice. To the OP, Im glad you still enjoy your set up without the subs. Towers are good way of getting most of the bass.

Having dialed in my subs in all 3 of my systems, I can honestly say that I cant go without them. Music maybe but not action movies. If there's an explosion, I want to feel it and hear it. If my Scotch glasses are clinking together on the buffet, even better.


View attachment 56079
Thanks 3db. I hope to one day graduate to that "feel it in your bones" level :).
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks 3db. I hope to one day graduate to that "feel it in your bones" level :).
Well you could attach a tactile transducer under your seat...I use both multiple subs and one of those :) I have no bass limitations.....
 
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