Home Theater Question

[GuitarAddict]

I posted this in the newbie section but really the main part of the question relates more closely to this forum...thanks!

Hello all,

I am in the somewhat unique (and very fortunate) position of building a house right now, however by the end of this week it will be drywalled so any wiring that I want to do needs to be complete soon (hence the 'time sensitive' part of the question).

In my downstairs living room I've already pre-wired for an overhead projector system, including 25' of Monster's best component cable and an equally long VGA cable. I also wanted to pre-wire for 5.1 surround and have already done so using "Monster Standard THX SP THX Certified 16 gauge speaker cable with duraflex protective jacket," however I have a couple of questions related to my setup before they drywall the house and I can't change anything:

1) How good (or not) is the speaker cable I chose? I realize that there are thicker cables out there, but keep in mind that my final system I will have in place will be around $2,000 (including receiver), and I'm definitely not a big-time audiophile but I can appreciate clean, good sounding music. They had other cable there but at the time I felt that I would be getting diminishing returns by buying $250 worth of speaker wire for the level of system I will be installing (I paid $60 for 200 ft).

2) For my center channel should I run two speaker wires in case I want to double feed (not sure what the correct term is) the center channel speaker? My girlfriend's system has two separate speaker wires going into her center channel speaker, so the thought occurred to me that maybe I should go ahead and run 4 lines to the box for the center/left/right rather than just 3.

3) For what it's worth I've always liked Polk Audio speakers, and probably will use them again. I realize that there is better out there but to me they sound awfully good, and are within my budget. I went ahead and bought a pair of RC55i in-wall speakers that I will mount in the ceiling as rear channel speakers over the couch when everything is complete. They seem like they will be absolutely more than adequate serving as rear-channel speakers, any thoughts/input on this (I can still return them if need be)...? My goal is to buy a $500-700 Harmon Kardon receiver, a $300-400 JBL subwoofer and the remaining $1000-1200 on two tower side channel and center channel Polk Audio speakers. Does this sound like a decent route to take for basic H/T needs?

4) Finally, I'm running all the cables up the stud on the wall, through the ceiling and down the other wall where my speakers will be. I've read the sticky and saw that I should try to further isolate the speaker wire from AC power lines with rubber hose--I did the best I could by routing the speaker wire as far as possible from AC lines, but of course there's only so much you can do. Any advice on this? All the speaker wires are running in a group together through the walls, they won't interfere with each other will they? I'm hoping that the cable I bought will be pretty well shielded, and while it's a little late now I could, if absolutely necessary, re-wire with different cable.


Sorry about the long post and thanks in advance for all your responses!

 

[jaxvon]

1. It will work fine. I prefer to use 14-ga or thicker, but 16ga should be fine.

2. Bi-wiring is a waste of time. Running two wires might not be a bad idea, as you may want the ability to bi-amp in the future.

3. If you like Polks, then go with them. There are a TON of speaker options out there, so if I were you, I would try to hit up the hi-fi dealers in your area to check out the other brands that you can afford like Definitive Technology, Phase Technology, Paradigm, and others. I would route some of your budget away from the mains and put it toward a better subwoofer. In my opinion, JBL really doesn't make that great of subwoofers (at least in your price class) and you can get a lot more bass for your buck with an internet direct company like Hsu or SVS.

4. Rubber hose won't do anything to isolate your speaker wire from the AC lines. It will act as a conduit keeping the cables together, nothing more. The best thing you can do is exactly what you did, keep them as far away as possible from the AC lines. You should also make sure that when you cross speaker cables (or any audio/video cable) with an AC line that you do so at a 90 degree angle to minimize interference.

How much did you pay for the Monster component video cable? I have a feeling you could return it and save a bundle of cash on an equal cable. Also, I would run HDMI to your projector spot as well in the event that you want to send digital video to it as well.

 

[GuitarAddict]

Thanks for the reply and sorry about double-posting, it's just that I have very little time to do any work before they drywall so I definitely want to get as much input as I can.

I paid $120 each for two 13-foot Monster cable component cables, then connected them with some decent couplers. I still have the receipt so I can return them, but at Fry's Electronics (the only decent electronics store here in town) I didn't see any other good options for component cable that was suitably long. The sales guy said that they didn't have any HDMI cable that even approached 25' in length (I need at least 22' to go from my projector to the source), and what they did have was pretty expensive...but I didn't look too close because he said I didn't need any (I realize now that I probably do if I want to run hi-def stuff in the future).

Does this mean that I can completely forego installing my component cable and just use HDMI, or should I use both just to be on the safe side?

Thanks for the input about the subwoofer, I won't really start shopping for the speakers until the house is done and I'm moved in (late Sept.), but are the Polk RC55i speakers pretty decent for surrounds?

Thanks again!

 

[jaxvon]

As I thought. I would return the Monster cables and opt for a broadcast-quality cable from BlueJeans. A 25-foot cable is $92 and change (plus shipping), and they can do custom lengths too.

http://bluejeanscable.com/store/component/index.htm

A 25-foot HDMI cable shouldn't be hard to get either. I would run all the cables you think you'll ever need to the projector while you have the ability. You don't want to have the "I should have..." thoughts later on.

Here are some good retailers for HDMI cables. Keep in mind that the higher cost cables will have lower loss, but might be total overkill for a 25 foot run.

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI-hdmi_cables.html
http://bluejeanscable.com/store/dvi/index.htm
http://www.impactacoustics.com/product_list.asp?cat_id=2605
http://www2.dvigear.com/hdmihdmicables.html

 

[Spiffyfast]

I second Jaxvon run every possible cable you think you may possibly ever use, its better to be safe than sorry, or at least run conduit to the projector so you can add a wire at a later date

 

[BMXTRIX]

Good luck with the timeline...

1. In a home theater, most people try to run 14 or 12 gauge wiring from one of a dozen different companies. While Monster isn't bad, it tends to be way overpriced and 16 gauge is not considered ideal in a nice dedicated theater. Great for background speakers and distributed audio, but a decent 12 gauge wire will deliver more down the line.

2. Running 4 wires total to allow for bi-amping is not a bad thing - but run it everywhere, or at least to the front 3 speakers if you are going to do it at all.

3. Don't forget to run coax for your SUBWOOFER to at least one location, if not 2. You will also need power for that subwoofer, so plan for it!

4. Your projector needs, at the very minimum, one composite wire, one component wire, one HDMI wire, plus power. If you have a 5 wire VGA cable, that is a plus as well. But, don't forget power and HDMI.

5. I would run conduit where you can. 1"+ conduit from Carlon is a great way to go...
http://www.smarthome.com/PRODINDEX.ASP?CATID=613

6. You most definitely do NOT want to splice two cables together to create 1 long component cable. Either get some BlueJeans Cable or run separate pieces of RG6 Quad Shield cabling and terminate it yourself when the projector comes in.

7. While it's REALLY late in the game to be thinking and planning this - if you are building a home, run conduit EVERYWHERE you can, especially from the basement to the attic and consider where you may want speakers in your home later for distributed audio. FYI: I have wiring in my home to accomodate 16 different rooms of audio and conduit in place for any additional runs I may want down the road. During construction is THE time to do it all!

 

[~JC~]

Outside

Don't forget that you might want to run wires out to the porch or deck, a second zone, if you will. Perhaps out by the Barbee!

 

[GuitarAddict]

1. Keeping in mind that today is the very last day that I can do *any* of this stuff (they are drywalling tomorrow), is the signal loss/degradation with the two Monster component cables coupled together so bad that I would really want to run just one component cable, even if it is a lower quality cable (I can't order anything over the web given the short deadline)?

2. Unfortunately it's too late for the speaker wire, I'm just going to have to live with the 16 gauge. It's still decent wire, and this is my first home (it's a Beazer home, not custom), so I have to make some compromises (I'm lucky that my construction guy is letting me do *any* of this stuff!)...and given the level of equipment I will eventually install, I don't think I will hurt too much for heavier cable--but my next house will be better planned/integrated.

3. I will go ahead and make a short run to outside for a couple of outdoor speakers, thanks a BUNCH for the suggestion (~JC~)! The patio area is adjacent to where my sources will be so this will be pretty painless...

4. I've already got power and ceiling reinforcements set up for the projector, so that will be taken care of.

5. Since HDMI is apparently impossible to procure in a decent length locally, I can and will run a little conduit to install it at a later date. Because HDMI will be my primary connection between my A/V equipment and the projector, I'm thinking that I can just stick with the less-than-ideal coupled Monster component cable I've already installed due to time/money constraints (I think I threw away the packaging, so while I have the receipt returning it probably isn't an option...bummer). Does this seem reasonable?

Thanks a bunch everyone for your input, I'm leaving to do all this at 4:00 today so if you have any last minute suggestions I'd appreciate it!

 

[GuitarAddict]

Actually, something else did occur to me...

If I decided to run better speaker wire anyway to my front 3 speakers in addition to what I already have, could I later use the 16-gauge wire to bi-wire them?

 

[~JC~]

You're very welcome. I forgot to run them to the porch No reason that you should make the same mistake! Good luck.

 

[jcsprankle]

One thing to remember...if you're running conduit for an HDMI cable later, make sure you account for the size of the connector. The cable isn't that thick but the connector is large (relative to RCA, for example) and you'll need to make sure the connector will fit through the conduit. I would use a minimum of 3/4".

 

[GuitarAddict]

Well, here's what I did...hopefully I did okay, as they were drywalling it yesterday so it's all covered up now!

*I ran three more 16-gauge cables (identical to the originals) for the three front channels, so that I can bi-wire them. I don't know too much about bi-wiring, but wouldn't bi-wiring the 16-gauge cables for each of the front three channels overcome the relatively small gauge I'm using by putting more power to each speaker? I.e., is running two 16-gauge cables approximately equivalent to running a single 12 or 14-gauge?

*I did run a single subwoofer cable to the front right corner of the room, the other option for placement would be rear right corner--I could only get a 33 foot cable so that limited my options.

*It turns out they had HDMI cable at Fry's Electronics, 30 feet for $70. I decided to just go ahead and install it rather than risk using conduit, even though the cable might not be 100% as good as something from Bluejeans. I ran HDMI, S-video, composite video, the Monster component video, VGA and power lines to the mounting point on the ceiling, where I also ran a power cord into a separate box (to minimize interference). There is also an Ethernet cable coming in to the source area by the floor (I ran 9 Ethernet cables earlier to various points in the house so I won't have to use a wireless network if I don't want to).

*I did run two power lines outside by the patio area, I used the same 16-gauge cable as in the rest of my h/t setup. I'll run it through some PVC/conduit and bury it a little later, but at least it's there now. I foam insulated the run from both sides, so it's pretty tight.


That's all I can think of for right now. I'm pretty comfortable with what I was able to get done, and confident that the wiring should be enough to run a decent system for my current and future needs. I'll let you all know how it works out, but in the meantime if someone can answer my question re bi-wiring the front 3 channels I would appreciate it...

Thanks!

 

[Johnd]

I don't know too much about bi-wiring, but wouldn't bi-wiring the 16-gauge cables for each of the front three channels overcome the relatively small gauge I'm using by putting more power to each speaker? I.e., is running two 16-gauge cables approximately equivalent to running a single 12 or 14-gauge?

The answer to that question is not as simple as it seems, nor as some believe.

Solid wire is gauged on a logarythmic scale. A difference of 3 in gauge numbers (6 gauges for all applications) doubles the area of the wire. Two 16 ga solid wires would amount to a single 10 ga solid wire in area (cross sections). 14 14ga wires = 1"

Stranded wire is gauged by the cross sectional area of it's individual strands. And since 10 - 16 ga wire is stranded from about 50 strands to about 800 strands, with all points in between, you can see that the "math" is not a simple sliding scale for stranded wire.

Edit: When a guage number is multipled by the diameter of it's wire, it equals approximately 1" for gauges 5-14awg.

 

[GuitarAddict]

Thanks Johnd!

But for all practical purposes, and as far as I'm concerned, with the two 16-gauge wires in there I will be much better off powering higher-quality speakers than with a single 16-gauge wire, correct? I will be able to put more power into the speakers, albeit maybe not an ideal situation it's better than nothing I guess...right?

 

[Johnd]

I don't know that you'll necessarily be much better off, but it is the cheapest uprade for sound, with possibly great results. The benefit is simply that the emf from the woofer cannot effect the midrange and tweeter frequencies since they are now passed on different cables.

Just to be certain to use identical cables and identical lengths. Happy listening.

 

[jcsprankle]

Solid wire is gauged on a logarythmic scale. A difference of 3 in gauge doubles the area of the wire. Two 16 ga solid wires would amount to a single "13" ga solid wire in area (cross sections). 16 16ga wires = 1"

I've been wondering about this for a while. If 16 16ga wires = 1", does it also hold true that 12 12ga wires = 1" and 8 8ga wires = 1"? If so, then that sort of makes sense. The gauge of a wire would be equivalent to the number needed to make a single wire of 1" diameter.

Let's check the math on this. If a 3 decrease in gauge doubles the diameter of the wire, then the pattern goes like this:

1" = 16 16ga wires
-3 = 13ga
1" = 8 13ga wires (16/2 since the wire doubled in size)
-3 = 10ga
1" = 4 10ga wires (8/2)
-3 = 7ga
1" = 2 7ga wires (4/2)
-3 = 4ga wires
1" = 1 4ga wire (2/2)

So, a 4ga wire should be 1" in diameter I guess 16 is just a special multiple for 1". Hmmm....better think on this some more.

 

[Johnd]

Allow me to correct my original statement and conversion:

When placed side by side, the wire multiplied by its' gauge number approximately equals one (1) for gauges 5 through 14 (common electrical wire).

A decrease in 6 gauges (3 gauge numbers for most home wiring applications) doubles the wire diameter. Period. I know I did the conversion incorrectly, but the above statement is not only accurate, it is a definition of the American wire gauge (awg).

Sorry for the confusion. Happy Easter!