High Fi Audio Sales Figures

[demigawd]

Hi. I work in marketing for a well-known audio manufacturer. They recently started looking for ideas in their next generation MP3 player, and as an audiophile I really want to push them in this direction, and I think I can do it if I make a decent case for it.

I'd like to know, what is a good source of market research for the growth of high end audio? Have any of you seen sales numbers or figures for various audiophile technologies? I was doing some looking on my own, but the problem seems to be that a lot of audiophile-class manufacturers are private, and therefore don't release any numbers.

Does anybody know how well our marketplace is doing? Any facts and figures anywhere at all? Any market research into high end audio that's been published? If I can get any encouraging information at all, I'm hopeful we can add audiophile class features to our product line in the near future, which will benefit us all.

In fact, any facts, figures or surveys about even the importance of high end audio to laypeople would be useful as well.

 

[markw]

First off, you need to clarify what you mean by "high-end" audio. That's a fairly neblous term.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi. I work in marketing for a well-known audio manufacturer. They recently started looking for ideas in their next generation MP3 player, and as an audiophile I really want to push them in this direction, and I think I can do it if I make a decent case for it.

I'd like to know, what is a good source of market research for the growth of high end audio? Have any of you seen sales numbers or figures for various audiophile technologies? I was doing some looking on my own, but the problem seems to be that a lot of audiophile-class manufacturers are private, and therefore don't release any numbers.

Does anybody know how well our marketplace is doing? Any facts and figures anywhere at all? Any market research into high end audio that's been published? If I can get any encouraging information at all, I'm hopeful we can add audiophile class features to our product line in the near future, which will benefit us all.

In fact, any facts, figures or surveys about even the importance of high end audio to laypeople would be useful as well.

First of all any MP3 player at any price would not qualify as being a high end product in my book. I don't think you will make it sound better than a cheap player.

Lossy codecs are not adequate for a lot of classical music, period. The pop culture won't care, as they have usually trashed the sound well before it gets to hard drive in the studio.

 

[MinusTheBear]

First of all any MP3 player at any price would not qualify as being a high end product in my book. I don't think you will make it sound better than a cheap player.

Lossy codecs are not adequate for a lot of classical music, period. The pop culture won't care, as they have usually trashed the sound well before it gets to hard drive in the studio.

I guess you don't know that most MP3 players these days support lossless codecs. Flac being the most popular among players and the proprietary ALAC for Apple.

Sandisk offers the Sansa Clip+ MP3 player that fits even the lowest of budgets dependant on storage. The 2gb (which also a Micro SD slot for additional storage) is a superb little device for very little money <$30usd. There are also some terrific offerings in all price ranges from the likes of Cowon, Samsung, Sony, Microsoft etc.

You might need to re-educate yourself on portable media.

 

[sholling]

Sorry that I can't be of help other than to give my $0.02. I think most of those audiophiles that consider buying portable audio understand that high ambient nose levels when out and about make the apparent differences between lossless and high bite-rate (320 and VBR) MP3s minimal. But being audio nuts we'd still like support for the most common lossless format - namely FLAC - even if we later decide that they take up too much space.

Things like clock-radios with docks are great. But I'll be darned if I'll use a docked MP3 player to feed a $1500 receiver to play MP3s through $4000 worth of speakers.

Number 1 on my wish list is good clean sound.

Number 2 on my wish list is a strong enough amplifier to really drive high-end in-ear-monitors to their full potential without having to add an external pocket amp. I currently use UE Trile-Fi 10 Pro driven by a Total Airhead pocket amp Velcroed to my MP3 player.

Number 3 is more space at a decent price. $300 for 32GB is a joke. 64GB for $300 if everything else is perfect - maybe.

Number 4 on my wish list is the user interface.

But in reality the high-end MP3 player market is going to be supplanted by the convergence phone. The iPhone, Andriod, Blackberry, and Pre, and the upcoming ZunePhone which is on my Christmas present to myself list unless they really screw it up, or make the storage too small. About the only thing that would convince to carry a separate device is a quality built in amplifier rivaling the Total Airhead and your lawyers will never allow that, or if they don't pack at least 32GB into the ZunePhone - 64GB would be better.

 

[TLS Guy]

I guess you don't know that most MP3 players these days support lossless codecs. Flac being the most popular among players and the proprietary ALAC for Apple.

Sandisk offers the Sansa Clip+ MP3 player that fits even the lowest of budgets dependant on storage. The 2gb (which also a Micro SD slot for additional storage) is a superb little device for very little money <$30usd.

I knew about Apple, but I did not know generic MP3 players supported FLAC. The problem with FLAC is it is free ware and can not be used for profit.

The Sandisk Clip I'm not very familiar with.

If it truly is an MP3 player however, the MP3 system just supports MP3 which is lossy. So the OP would have to market an MP3 + player to make any high end claims.

 

[MinusTheBear]

I knew about Apple, but I did not know generic MP3 players supported FLAC. The problem with FLAC is it is free ware and can not be used for profit.

The Sandisk Clip I'm not very familiar with.

If it truly is an MP3 player however, the MP3 system just supports MP3 which is lossy. So the OP would have to market an MP3 + player to make any high end claims.

The Sansa Clip+ supports FLAC like pretty much all portable audio/video devices these days (minus Apple). Referring to a "MP3 Player" is just a generic term that is tossed around. It doesn't mean anything about the file support or the features present in the product. The more appropriate term is to call it a portable media player (PMP).

I also find your use of the word "generic" hilarious. There is nothing generic about the portable media (audio/video) products made by Sandisk, Samsung, Cowon, Microsoft, Sony etc.

 

[sholling]

I knew about Apple, but I did not know generic MP3 players supported FLAC. The problem with FLAC is it is free ware and can not be used for profit.

The Sandisk Clip I'm not very familiar with.

If it truly is an MP3 player however, the MP3 system just supports MP3 which is lossy. So the OP would have to market an MP3 + player to make any high end claims.

You can call it an MP3 player, or a pocket audio device, or portable music player or anything that you want but many companies now support FLAC in what are generically called MP3 players and FLAC developers have long encouraged companies to include hardware support. They are smart enough to understand that that FLAC needs hardware support to really take off and become popular with the masses. Look at APE - it never picked up a hardware following and is pretty much dead.
http://flac.sourceforge.net/

 

[sholling]

I also find your use of the word "generic" hilarious. There is nothing generic about the portable media (audio/video) products made by Sandisk, Samsung, Cowon, Microsoft, Sony etc.

Actually I find it perfectly appropriate. You can argue all you like about unique styling and UIs of the hardware all you like but the term "MP3 player" is now generic and refers to everything from $5 specials to $300 iPods.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Actually I find it perfectly appropriate. You can argue all you like about unique styling and UIs of the hardware all you like but the term "MP3 player" is now generic and refers to everything from $5 specials to $300 iPods.

Great point. I was thinking of a different interpretation of generic as "cheap" or "low quality". That is what I thought TLS Guy was referring too based on his first post and my interpretation of it.

 

[highfigh]

Hi. I work in marketing for a well-known audio manufacturer. They recently started looking for ideas in their next generation MP3 player, and as an audiophile I really want to push them in this direction, and I think I can do it if I make a decent case for it.

I'd like to know, what is a good source of market research for the growth of high end audio? Have any of you seen sales numbers or figures for various audiophile technologies? I was doing some looking on my own, but the problem seems to be that a lot of audiophile-class manufacturers are private, and therefore don't release any numbers.

Does anybody know how well our marketplace is doing? Any facts and figures anywhere at all? Any market research into high end audio that's been published? If I can get any encouraging information at all, I'm hopeful we can add audiophile class features to our product line in the near future, which will benefit us all.

In fact, any facts, figures or surveys about even the importance of high end audio to laypeople would be useful as well.

You work for a well-known audio manufacturer and you can't find the market research? Really? Every manufacturer belongs to associations that collect this on a regular basis.

How will this high-end MP3 player get the sound to the listeners' ears? If it's with ear buds, I wouldn't bother- they aren't able to produce high enough sound quality. If you hope to get people to use supra-aural phones, good luck with that one, too.

 

[sholling]

How will this high-end MP3 player get the sound to the listeners' ears? If it's with ear buds, I wouldn't bother- they aren't able to produce high enough sound quality. If you hope to get people to use supra-aural phones, good luck with that one, too.

I agree with you but there is an uncompromising compromise . In-ear-monitors. The better models will run with the over the ear big boys in their own price class.

 

[BMXTRIX]

There are some significant issues I think that people run into when we are talking about a portable music device.

1. Apple owns the market. The number two player is SanDisk - the market for 'high end' is going to be a tough one to break into.

2. I would make sure that the parent company is a member of CEDIA and that you check with CEDIA to see what sales figures they may have. They may be able to provide actual reported industry information.

3. Cel phones are what I think the portable industry is moving towards, and any potential tie-in to a cel phone could lead to major revenue return if done properly as part of marketing, but this is going to be a big time investment.

4. It WILL be a big time investment, because you will need to be able to differentiate your product in some manner. Audio is basically easy to portablize, so what will you give that makes it better? On the road, people already have access to FLAC players and other lossless players for the VERY few who care about that level of audio quality in a portable format.

5. Home media players aren't portable, and they hit the areas which include FLAC and WAV format files stored over LAN connections as well. (Popcorn Hour, DuneHD, etc.)

6. Incredible software, included with the product, is a bit more than lacking. iTunes stinks, other manufacturers just have you use the stuff built into your computer. So, finding a good and unique program might help, but once again - pricey.

I wouldn't think about going into the personal media player market at this point. There are way to many cheap imports and Apple is the God in the industry with the major kick of the iPhone likely going onto other networks by year's end.

I haven't touched my other players since I got an iPod, and I'm never intending to.

My custom installations are all based around iTunes and iPods.

Seriously - very tough call, though there is room for improvement, it is not as straightforward as just getting a product to market.

 

[demigawd]

Thanks for the information everybody. Does anybody know if there is any encouraging information or numbers from any products in the hifi audio market at all? Any announced figures or at least documented growth year over year?

One thing we were thinking about was perhaps having a bit of a portable digital receiver with integrated amp. Something that integrates lossless tech with HD Radio and can communicate via Bluetooth and/or Wireless with home systems and other units to create an ad hoc network. In that sense, we become both a remote and a digital receiver and amp. The price would probably be just under $1000, but if there's a market for it at the high end level, it might be viable. I just want to find some encouraging numbers to suggest that there's hope for the audiophile market, even if it just consists of surveys that show a growing number of people who are concerned with audio quality.

 

[highfigh]

I agree with you but there is an uncompromising compromise . In-ear-monitors. The better models will run with the over the ear big boys in their own price class.

How many people are willing to spend the money for good in-ear monitors? Plus, those are usually fitted to the musician's ears, if they're the top of the line.

For the record, I'm going to come out and say that there will be a lot of people with worse hearing damage because of iPods and units like them, due to the ear buds and the frequency response being strongest in the human speech range. Plus, people just can't play the music at a level that will allow their ears to live. The only company I can think of that puts any kind of warning on their products is Koss and they started doing that in the late '80s, IIRC. I may be wrong about whether any others have a warning but it should be heeded.

 

[highfigh]

There are some significant issues I think that people run into when we are talking about a portable music device.

1. Apple owns the market. The number two player is SanDisk - the market for 'high end' is going to be a tough one to break into.

2. I would make sure that the parent company is a member of CEDIA and that you check with CEDIA to see what sales figures they may have. They may be able to provide actual reported industry information.

3. Cel phones are what I think the portable industry is moving towards, and any potential tie-in to a cel phone could lead to major revenue return if done properly as part of marketing, but this is going to be a big time investment.

4. It WILL be a big time investment, because you will need to be able to differentiate your product in some manner. Audio is basically easy to portablize, so what will you give that makes it better? On the road, people already have access to FLAC players and other lossless players for the VERY few who care about that level of audio quality in a portable format.

5. Home media players aren't portable, and they hit the areas which include FLAC and WAV format files stored over LAN connections as well. (Popcorn Hour, DuneHD, etc.)

6. Incredible software, included with the product, is a bit more than lacking. iTunes stinks, other manufacturers just have you use the stuff built into your computer. So, finding a good and unique program might help, but once again - pricey.

I wouldn't think about going into the personal media player market at this point. There are way to many cheap imports and Apple is the God in the industry with the major kick of the iPhone likely going onto other networks by year's end.

I haven't touched my other players since I got an iPod, and I'm never intending to.

My custom installations are all based around iTunes and iPods.

Seriously - very tough call, though there is room for improvement, it is not as straightforward as just getting a product to market.

CEDIA isn't the organization I was referring to. CEA is the Consumer Electronics Association and it's like a watchdog for the industry in many ways. CEDIA is good but it's geared more to maintaining a certain level of training and ability for its members, so the bad apples won't cause consumers to avoid it like the plague. It deals with marketing analysis on a less precide basis than the CEA.

 

[highfigh]

Thanks for the information everybody. Does anybody know if there is any encouraging information or numbers from any products in the hifi audio market at all? Any announced figures or at least documented growth year over year?

One thing we were thinking about was perhaps having a bit of a portable digital receiver with integrated amp. Something that integrates lossless tech with HD Radio and can communicate via Bluetooth and/or Wireless with home systems and other units to create an ad hoc network. In that sense, we become both a remote and a digital receiver and amp. The price would probably be just under $1000, but if there's a market for it at the high end level, it might be viable. I just want to find some encouraging numbers to suggest that there's hope for the audiophile market, even if it just consists of surveys that show a growing number of people who are concerned with audio quality.

Do you read any of the trade magazines?

 

[demigawd]

Do you read any of the trade magazines?

I've been looking through them the past few weeks. A lot of it has to do with product announcements and reviews, or vague statements of encouragement like, "successful" or "red hot". But specifics appear to be elusive so far.

I wonder - are there publicly traded companies that manufacture audiophile class products? I found a few large companies that include audiophile class products in its portfolio, but never seem to break the sales down for specific products. for example, Monster talks about how successful the Beats headphones are, but never discuss actual figures. I don't know why.

 

[TLS Guy]

I've been looking through them the past few weeks. A lot of it has to do with product announcements and reviews, or vague statements of encouragement like, "successful" or "red hot". But specifics appear to be elusive so far.

I wonder - are there publicly traded companies that manufacture audiophile class products? I found a few large companies that include audiophile class products in its portfolio, but never seem to break the sales down for specific products. for example, Monster talks about how successful the Beats headphones are, but never discuss actual figures. I don't know why.

"Audiophile" has bad connotations and is a pseudonym, for "what loopy product can we produce, or disguise another manufacturers product because we have no clue or talent, and hype with the object of relieving a few stupid wealthy people of a lot of cash."

What is really required is to produce better products in the range of a lot of middle class consumers.

Now I think the first outfit to market a good active set of surround speakers and sub for 3 to 4 K will get the to toffee apple. Then if you can market a good pre/pro to drive them for around $500 you will really hit the jackpot.

While your at it develop a driver then can cover the whole of the speech discrimination band +/- 1 to 2 db with good axis and off axis response to be the foundation of the set, you will really clean up.

Now you have clear direction you can get busy. If you really are major company and can piss in the tall grass it is achievable. If you are one of the many market and scam companies forget it and stop bothering us.

There are public companies that have famous brands, for instance Marantz/Denon have McIntosh. You can research the rest for yourself, you apparently are getting a pay check for this and I am not.

 

[sholling]

How many people are willing to spend the money for good in-ear monitors? Plus, those are usually fitted to the musician's ears, if they're the top of the line.

You'd be surprised. Even the entry priced (<$100) Shure SE210 sounds pretty decent if properly fitted to your ear using the included selection of tips. By the time you get into the level of an Etymotic ER-4 or the Ultimate Ears Triple-Fi 10 Pro (what I use) you're into pretty darn good quality for any flavor of can - without having custom tips made. Of course custom tips is always an option. The key is getting them properly anchored in the ear canal.

For the record, I'm going to come out and say that there will be a lot of people with worse hearing damage because of iPods and units like them, due to the ear buds and the frequency response being strongest in the human speech range.

Believe it or not this is far less of a problem with in-ear-monitors. Especially high quality in-ear-monitors. Most people crank up volume for two reasons. Immersion and detail. People often use volume is often used to try to recover missing detail. I've found that the isolation of IEMs that I tend to turn down the volume. That seems to be the common reaction among users. All of the detail is there, the isolation gives a feeling of immersion without having to damage your hearing. I still use an external pocket amp but only for impact.

Of course there is a downside. They should not be used for bike riding in traffic because of the degree of isolation.