High End Mature Receiver is it worth it, Optical should sound just fine?

[mibson]

I use a pc to my ps3 via ps3 media server. My goal is to have wave or flac files on my pc to my ps3 via hard wire cat5 cable, or any "lossless" digital audio files. Then to my receiver or processor digitally.

I found a great deal on a high end used Yamaha receiver (no HDMI).

What limits me by using a optical cable from my ps3 to a receiver and HDMI to my 1080p tv from the ps3 also; instead of having HDMI to my receiver for audio and video?

I know about: less cables, simpler, some of new HD audio that wont work.

I dont know if I have a blue ray with HD audio, will this older Yamaha be able to be "back convert" to dolby or DTS 5.1?

If it is backward compatable, I dont understand why this would not be the way to go with a limited av equipment budget.


AV Gear:
I have a pair of PSB T8s
Emotiva UPA-2
15 Year old Arcam preap
PS3
PC hardwired to PS3 with ps3 Media Server
I have 4 older good speakers to use as surrounds and I will buy a PSB C4 center channel soon.

 

[3db]

I use a pc to my ps3 via ps3 media server. My goal is to have wave or flac files on my pc to my ps3 via hard wire cat5 cable, or any "lossless" digital audio files. Then to my receiver or processor digitally.

I found a great deal on a high end used Yamaha receiver (no HDMI).

What limits me by using a optical cable from my ps3 to a receiver and HDMI to my 1080p tv from the ps3 also; instead of having HDMI to my receiver for audio and video?

I know about: less cables, simpler, some of new HD audio that wont work.

I dont know if I have a blue ray with HD audio, will this older Yamaha be able to be "back convert" to dolby or DTS 5.1?

If it is backward compatable, I dont understand why this would not be the way to go with a limited av equipment budget.


AV Gear:
I have a pair of PSB T8s
Emotiva UPA-2
15 Year old Arcam preap
PS3
PC hardwired to PS3 with ps3 Media Server
I have 4 older good speakers to use as surrounds and I will buy a PSB C4 center channel soon.

I may be wrong but I am under the impression that lossless audio codecs are not transmitted from the PS3 via the fibre optic cable. I think the lossy audio codecs may be on some bluray depending on the blu ray. I would have to check my blurays tonight when I get home. Since I got my bluray player, I never payed attention to what audio codecs are included on blu rays. I kept selecting the lossless codecs. The question is, can you set up your PS3 to output through its HDMI and optical output at the same time? If so, and if theblu ray contains the older DTS, and Dolby lossy codecs, you would be ok to go.

 

[TLS Guy]

I use a pc to my ps3 via ps3 media server. My goal is to have wave or flac files on my pc to my ps3 via hard wire cat5 cable, or any "lossless" digital audio files. Then to my receiver or processor digitally.

I found a great deal on a high end used Yamaha receiver (no HDMI).

What limits me by using a optical cable from my ps3 to a receiver and HDMI to my 1080p tv from the ps3 also; instead of having HDMI to my receiver for audio and video?

I know about: less cables, simpler, some of new HD audio that wont work.

I dont know if I have a blue ray with HD audio, will this older Yamaha be able to be "back convert" to dolby or DTS 5.1?

If it is backward compatable, I dont understand why this would not be the way to go with a limited av equipment budget.


AV Gear:
I have a pair of PSB T8s
Emotiva UPA-2
15 Year old Arcam preap
PS3
PC hardwired to PS3 with ps3 Media Server
I have 4 older good speakers to use as surrounds and I will buy a PSB C4 center channel soon.

I don't know the PS3, but it needs to be able to send 5.1 as PCM via the optical out.

Now DTS master audio should be no problem, but you may have a problem with discs that only have Dolby True HD, no DTS or Dolby digital 5.1. Unless the PS3 can convert to Dolby digital you will only get two channel audio. we have had this issue this week.

Personally I would not put money into an obsolete receiver, I think you are setting up for trouble going forward.

 

[Pyrrho]

I recommend that you buy a receiver that can deal with the new audio formats. Otherwise, the only way to get them are if your receiver can receive multichannel PCM via HDMI (which requires a BD player that can convert to multichannel PCM) or multichannel analog from the player (which, of course, must have multichannel analog outputs for that to be possible).


If you disregard that advice and buy the old receiver anyway, the receiver cannot "back convert" anything that it cannot accept. Any such conversion would have to be done in the player. With some soundtracks, you are likely to end up with 2 channel audio, perhaps Dolby Pro Logic encoded, which could be had via analog connections. In other words, you will have sound from some BD discs that is comparable to what you could have had 20 years ago.

With conventional optical and coaxial digital connections, you cannot get multichannel PCM. You can only send compressed multichannel (like the old DD and dts) and two channel PCM (like a CD).

Since you have a separate power amp now, you might want to buy a receiver that has preamp outputs and then, if needed, you can hook up that power amp for extra power.

 

[sholling]

If I'm reading you post correctly it looks like you want to use your PS3 for maybe music playback. I haven't tried WAV files but PS3s will not play FLAC files.

Blu-Ray audio over optical will work but not the lossless formats.

 

[Seth=L]

I found a great deal on a high end used Yamaha receiver (no HDMI).

Pardon my seemingly rude question, but why are you being vague? It would be more useful if we knew what particular model Yamaha receiver you are looking at and how much it costs. No harm in getting a second opinion on whether it's a great deal now is there?

All Blu-ray discs are required to support legacy Dolby Digital 5.1 in some form or another. Basically this means if the primary audio track on the disc is DTS-HD MA, then there also has to be a standard Dolby Digital 5.1 track. If the disc has Dolby Digital TrueHD the Dolby Digital TrueHD is downmixed to 5.1 Dolby Digital for output over optical. Most people can't tell the difference between lossy and lossless soundtracks. I am assuming that you, like me, would rather have a higher quality receiver without HDMI vs. a modern receiver for the same price that has less than half the power than the older receiver.

For example, I would rather have an Yamaha DSP-A1 for $300-400 than a Pioneer VSX-1020-K for a similar or higher price.

 

[mibson]

More details

I found a Yamaha RX-V1 for $250.

I was planning on getting the Emotiva processor and more of their amps to build a very good surround/music system. But Ive realized Ill be waiting a long time since I blew my entire wife approved budget on my PSB T8s.

When I saw this rx v1 for sale I thought it might be a good option for me for the next few years until I can go with a newer system.

Im 95% sure the ps3 can send video via HDMI and sound via optical at the same time. Im doing that now with the analog out for sound and HDMI for video.

Basically when I say "back convert" I was hoping that dvds and blurays would give me 5,1 surround even though Im using optical from my ps3 to receiver.

I have read online for many hours and I got the impression that most dvds and blurays have dts 5.1 or dolblydigital 5.1. I also got the impression that these older surround formats are backwards compatable with most older and newer receivers.

I am using my pc to ps3 via ethernet cable for music and video right now, also I rent blurays.

In the end I was hoping to be able to store music on my pc and/or ps3 in wave files (or perhaps flac) and then have this sent digitally all the way to my receiver.

One point causing confusion for me; why is audio via hdmi going to sound better when I listen to my brothers very high end 15 year old surround system that has no digital at all; it sounds better than I could ever imagine and he never has trouble with dvds surround not working. (he has not gone bluray yet).

Im confused, this stuff is getting pretty technical...Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[mibson]

All Blu-ray discs are required to support legacy Dolby Digital 5.1 in some form or another. Basically this means if the primary audio track on the disc is DTS-HD MA, then there also has to be a standard Dolby Digital 5.1 track. If the disc has Dolby Digital TrueHD the Dolby Digital TrueHD is downmixed to 5.1 Dolby Digital for output over optical. Most people can't tell the difference between lossy and lossless soundtracks. I am assuming that you, like me, would rather have a higher quality receiver without HDMI vs. a modern receiver for the same price that has less than half the power than the older receiver.For example, I would rather have an Yamaha DSP-A1 for $300-400 than a Pioneer VSX-1020-K for a similar or higher price.

This is exactly my conclusion after many hours of reading. I was hoping however to have wave files on my pc sent to my ps3 digitally via ethernet then digitally 2.0 to my receiver so my receiver or processor can convert to analog for my power amp (or perhaps this rx-v1).

One more thing, I pretty sure Im losing sound quality since im using the 2ch analog out from the ps3 for audio to my 15 year old Arcam Zeta2 (used only as a 2.0 ch preamp), so optical seems like a good idea.

I do want good surround sound with movies but great 2.0 is my main goal for music using some type of media server. (ps3 media server for now)

 

[Seth=L]

when I listen to my brothers very high end 15 year old surround system that has no digital at all; it sounds better than I could ever imagine and he never has trouble with dvds surround not working.

This probably has more to do with his speakers and power behind them.

One point causing confusion for me; why is audio via hdmi going to sound better?

HDMI allows Blu-ray audio codecs to pass at their bit rate. Dolby Digital and DTS are compressed audio codecs, while Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are uncompressed lossless tracks. Some people can tell a difference, some can't. I think the dynamics are more important than bitrate, and I've even heard compressed tracks that sound better than the uncompressed ones, such as Master & Commander.

 

[TLS Guy]

Pardon my seemingly rude question, but why are you being vague? It would be more useful if we knew what particular model Yamaha receiver you are looking at and how much it costs. No harm in getting a second opinion on whether it's a great deal now is there?

All Blu-ray discs are required to support legacy Dolby Digital 5.1 in some form or another. Basically this means if the primary audio track on the disc is DTS-HD MA, then there also has to be a standard Dolby Digital 5.1 track. If the disc has Dolby Digital TrueHD the Dolby Digital TrueHD is downmixed to 5.1 Dolby Digital for output over optical. Most people can't tell the difference between lossy and lossless soundtracks. I am assuming that you, like me, would rather have a higher quality receiver without HDMI vs. a modern receiver for the same price that has less than half the power than the older receiver.

For example, I would rather have an Yamaha DSP-A1 for $300-400 than a Pioneer VSX-1020-K for a similar or higher price.

The problem is Seth, the rule is getting broken. I have one Blue Ray disc with only a Dolby True HD track.

 

[mibson]

The problem is Seth, the rule is getting broken. I have one Blue Ray disc with only a Dolby True HD track.

This complictes things for me...
This is what I was wondering would happen.
I did read that all dvds and blurays must have core audio data in dolby digital or DTS.

 

[Pyrrho]

...
All Blu-ray discs are required to support legacy Dolby Digital 5.1 in some form or another. Basically this means if the primary audio track on the disc is DTS-HD MA, then there also has to be a standard Dolby Digital 5.1 track. ...

Do you have a link for that requirement? Judging from the discs that I have bought and rented, I think you must be mistaken. Perhaps you are confusing what is required of BD players, that they must support that format. But that is not the same as requiring that format on every disc.

 

[mibson]

Do you have a link for that requirement? Judging from the discs that I have bought and rented, I think you must be mistaken. Perhaps you are confusing what is required of BD players, that they must support that format. But that is not the same as requiring that format on every disc.

I do not have a link, I have read so much I have no idea where I read that. I could be confusing it as you said.

I need to be more concise.

Will I get better sound in
1) 2.0 stereo for music and
2) surround sound for movies

If I have a Yamaha RX-V1 for $250 (with no hdmi, using optical cable from the ps3) or if I have a newer cheeper receiver with hdmi?
I do have a emotiva upa-2 right now, ps3, old arcam premap. (see the first post in this thread for all my av stuff).

 

[Seth=L]

The problem is Seth, the rule is getting broken. I have one Blue Ray disc with only a Dolby True HD track.

As I said, Dolby TrueHD is downmixed to 5.1 Dolby Digital for output over optical, there is no problem. This fits the mandate of the Dolby Digital 5.1 requirement for Blu-ray discs.

For audio, BD-ROM players are required to support Dolby Digital (AC-3), DTS, and linear PCM. Players may optionally support Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio as well as lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. BD-ROM titles must use one of the mandatory schemes for the primary soundtrack. A secondary audiotrack, if present, may use any of the mandatory or optional codecs.

I have yet to see a Blu-ray that does not have one of the following; Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, or Dolby Digital TrueHD. Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD can both be downmixed for output over optical SPDIF.

 

[jostenmeat]

Do you have a link for that requirement? Judging from the discs that I have bought and rented, I think you must be mistaken. Perhaps you are confusing what is required of BD players, that they must support that format. But that is not the same as requiring that format on every disc.

As I said, Dolby TrueHD is downmixed to 5.1 Dolby Digital for output over optical, there is no problem. This fits the mandate of the Dolby Digital 5.1 requirement for Blu-ray discs.

I haven't read this thread, so sorry there, and I don't think I've owned any of the equipment being discussed. However, Seth I don't believe TrueHD is downmixed to DD. There is normally* an accompanying lossy track that the player should default to with spdif.

I have not at all kept up on the different/evolving BD profiles, but Pyrrho brings up a point: there have been discs that did not have an accompanying lossless track for say mch PCM. Some early players (perhaps profile 1.1 was it, maybe even as final 2.0?) unfortunately could not "transcode" mch PCM into DD/DTS. I remember allargon once brought up some music BD, perhaps it was Mariah Carey, without an accompanying lossy track, which created an issue with Sony bdp's at the time.

 

[Seth=L]

I haven't read this thread, so sorry there, and I don't think I've owned any of the equipment being discussed. However, Seth I don't believe TrueHD is downmixed to DD. There is normally* an accompanying lossy track that the player should default to with spdif.

I have not at all kept up on the different/evolving BD profiles, but Pyrrho brings up a point: there have been discs that did not have an accompanying lossless track for say mch PCM. Some early players (perhaps profile 1.1 was it, maybe even as final 2.0?) unfortunately could not "transcode" mch PCM into DD/DTS. I remember allargon once brought up some music BD, perhaps it was Mariah Carey, without an accompanying lossy track, which created an issue with Sony bdp's at the time.

DTS-HD MA and DTS-HD are able to be played back as core DTS.

According to DTS-HD White Paper[4], the DTS-HD Master Audio contains 2 data streams: the original DTS core stream and the additional "residual" stream which contains the "difference" between the original signal and the lossy compression DTS core stream.

I was askew in regard to Dolby Digital TrueHD, a separate track is required.

Since TrueHD is an optional codec, a separate (primary) AC-3 audiotrack must be present on Blu-ray discs that contain a TrueHD track.

That covers both issues.

 

[jostenmeat]

DTS-HD MA and DTS-HD are able to be played back as core DTS.

Yes, I know, I was probably the first guy here to continually talk about this a few years ago. I never addressed the dual bitstreams of DTSMA in this thread. I've always paid compliments to DTS for allowing the easiest "user" implementation, with complete backwards compatibility for legacy devices, and yet at the same time allowing a doubling of the bitrate typically. OTOH, as far as software implementation, DTSMA has the last thing to get figured out, particularly in sending it as bitstreamed. I love that I typically don't ever have to fiddle with the audio menu on the BD when the track is DTSMA. This codec doesn't even need to be discussed here; it's already made easy for all of us. No autoflagged DRC to worry about either (but that's because I use an Onkyo processor).

 

[3db]

Looks like your good to go. The RX-V1 has a stout power supply/ampp section and for $250.00 is a decent buy. I'm of the same ilk...get the basics right like a good power supply and amp sections, throw in decoding for lossless codecs, forget the video upgrading capabilities (the displays handle this) and maybe room correction software and let it stand at that.

 

[mibson]

Yes, Ive decided to go for this receiver. I just nervous since I wont be able to test it.

I just realized today; if If I were to buy say, a Emotiva processor (UMC -1), wouldnt I have a pretty great av setup for surround?

Why are people selling good old receivers just because they dont have HDMI, when you can just buy a processor?

 

[Seth=L]

Why are people selling good old receivers just because they dont have HDMI, when you can just buy a processor?

They need to be like the Joneses?