High Def through Coax?

[rolyasm]

Okay, so all the signals coming in from my satellite are coax. I don't even have hi-def TV yet (my TV outputs
480P, but will do 1080i). However, I am curious how much resolution I will get through the coax? I know Component and HDMI will pass 1080p, but what about Coax? Say I am using Direct or Dish, and I have one, or two cables coming from my Dish to my TV, what is the best resolution I can get? Also, what is the best Audio I can hope to achieve? Do any sat. receivers output through HDMI? I guess I am wondering why if coax outputs 1080p, why use expensive HDMI; and... if I can't get full 1080p through my coax, why don't they use something better so I can (when I decide to)?

 

[BMXTRIX]

To me this sounds like you don't have high definition satellite receivers. A HD sat receiver will have HDMI output as well as component video.

If all the box has is composite (yellow) and coaxial (F-type connector) on the back, then it is NOT a HD sat box, and you aren't going to get any better video than 1080i.

Now, you have a lot of misunderstandings of how all this works, so it's likely best to start with the basics...

1. The piece of coax that connects to the back of your box can deliver compressed HD video on that cable. It does not delivery uncompressed HD video/audio.

2. The piece of coax that may come out of your box can deliver modulate audio/video to channel 3/4 of your TV. This is, absolutely, the worst possible connection you can make and gives the worst performance of 480i video.

3. Composite video (yellow) or S-video, delivers better quality, but the resolution will still never be higher than 480i.

4. Component video is the lowest connection type necessary to deliver 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p video. Only in limited situations is 1080p delivered over component video, but it is possible. Component would be identified by 3 RCA type connectors, one red, green, and blue connector typically labelled Y-Pb-Pr (green/blue/red).

5. HDMI delivers the same 480p/720p/1080i/1080p video that component video can, but over a digital connection. This connection typically delivers identical, or marginally better video quality. To often, people spend way to much on the HDMI cable instead of buying a decent inexpensive cable. (Monoprice/Blue Jeans Cable)

I think you need to start by calling your satellite provider and checking into getting HD service and boxes from them.

 

[Phil Taylor]

To cover a couple of your questions not covered in the excellent post above....

The cables ("one or two") coming from your satellite dish to your TV must first pass through a satellite receiver and that should be an HD box as mentioned above. The "f-type" screw on cable connection on an HD TV with an HD tuner can display an HD signal when connected to an over-the-air (OTA) antenna which will give you local network affiliates in HD provided you are within the reception area of same signals.

The best audio you can get from current satellite receivers is Dolby Digital 5.1. As far as I know there are no HD format signals currently available from Dish or Direct.... yet. In order to decode the available digital audio you would need to go through an audio receiver capable of decoding same - your TV would not provide that function. Also I believe that both Dish and Direct now have HDMI equipped receivers - I know Dish does as I am a customer - not sure about Direct but I'd choose Dish anyways as I like their receiver's user interface better.

And I agree that HDMI is only "expensive" when purchased retail - use monoprice.com or BJC for reasonable pricing on HDMI or any cables for that matter.

 

[rolyasm]

"1. The piece of coax that connects to the back of your box can deliver compressed HD video on that cable."

Okay, so this is the confusing part. So I have a Coax cable coming from my satellite that carries compressed HD A/V (audio being only 5.1). But I need to uncompress it to make it usable. So before the sat receiver, the coax is carrying a signal capable of eventually being HD, but not until it is uncompressed. Once the signal is uncompressed, it can only carry crappy 480i. Is this correct?

It sounds like the Sat Box receiver is the weak link. Once it is uncompressed, could I use another device to make the signal better? So with my current non-HD receiver, only putting out 480i, could I put another device between the sat receiver and my TV and boost the signal. This is more hypothetical, as I know the solution is just to buy a HD receiver. Just curious what happens to the extra uncompressed material. Is it lost forever once it goes through the sat receiver?

 

[gus6464]

Coax has enough bandwidth to carry up to a 1080p signal and more but the issue at hand is not about bandwidth, but about content protection. Content protection is what requires the use of a box to get the content to your TV.

 

[newb]

My 2 cents

Through reading here, not all stations broadcast a true 1080 signal so you get what you get (some are better than others), they compress the signal which worsens PQ, and some companies are better than others.

If all you have is a standard def TV (480i/p) that is all the definition you'll get regardless of the input. You need to have everything in place: HD input, HD cable box w/HDMI or Composite outs, cabling to the TV, and of course, a HD TV of at least 720 or 1080 to see a HD signal.

 

[Phil Taylor]

"1. The piece of coax that connects to the back of your box can deliver compressed HD video on that cable."

Okay, so this is the confusing part. So I have a Coax cable coming from my satellite that carries compressed HD A/V (audio being only 5.1). But I need to uncompress it to make it usable. So before the sat receiver, the coax is carrying a signal capable of eventually being HD, but not until it is uncompressed. Once the signal is uncompressed, it can only carry crappy 480i. Is this correct?

It sounds like the Sat Box receiver is the weak link. Once it is uncompressed, could I use another device to make the signal better? So with my current non-HD receiver, only putting out 480i, could I put another device between the sat receiver and my TV and boost the signal. This is more hypothetical, as I know the solution is just to buy a HD receiver. Just curious what happens to the extra uncompressed material. Is it lost forever once it goes through the sat receiver?

Apparently there has been a misunderstanding here... the cable that comes from your satellite dish does not carry a signal capable of being decoded by your TV alone or any TV for that matter. That cable(s) is carrying digital satellite signals in a format proprietary to the satellite signal provider and has to be deciphered by a satellite receiver from the satellite provider. If you currently have satellite service and you have an SD satellite box you will need to get an HD box (and service) to receive the HD signals provided by your satellite provider of choice. The available HD channels are not even "seen" nor transmitted by an SD receiver - it is not capable of drawing the HD info from the sat signal stream. So there is no loss of signal between an SD receiver and your TV - quite simply the HD signal is not there at all and only will be when you subscribe to HD satellite service and acquire an HD satellite receiver.

 

[bandphan]

Apparently there has been a misunderstanding here... the cable that comes from your satellite dish does not carry a signal capable of being decoded by your TV alone or any TV for that matter.

not that its worth anything both mitsu and sony made tvs that had sat tuners built in it was a part of Direct Conversion Tuner project that was very short lived.

 

[markw]

A common misconception that many make is that "coax" is a only type of cable.

As such, it can pass many different types signals. It's not at all descriptive of the purpose for which it's being used.

"Coax" type cable can pass RF (either analog or digital) from your cable provider, an antenna, or a satellite dish to your tuning device. These usually use the screw-on "F" type connectors.

It can also pass various video signals as well. It can pass composite yideo (yellow jack) and three of them (red, green and blue) can pass component video. These use RCA connectors and although all are interchangable, they are generally color-coded for convenience.

FWIW, coax is capable of passing the best quality HD video now available in RF (or video format for that matter) format. It's up the the tuner to sort it all out. As for 1080p. well, that's only available via HDMI due to marketing decisions, not a technical limitation.

Likewise, they can pass audio as well. The cable pair with the red/white RCA plugs on the ends are generally used for analog audio and a single cable with orange plugs is used for digital audio, although in practice practically any analog or video type cable will pass digital audio fir home use with no problem.

Oh, in a few applications they use BNC connectors instead of RCA connectors but they are rare in home usage.

So, "coax" is a pretty general term and is a fairly poor type of description for what's being passed through it. One should be a bit more specific when relating that information.

 

[rolyasm]

I understand the signal needs to be decoded. I think what I was trying to get the basics of, is what the limitation of Coax type cable is. I didn't understand how SINCE it CAN pass 1080p, why we don't use it as such. All the signals come in from Coax, and then we switch it over to HDMI, or whatever. We all use Component or HDMI it seems to me. So that was the confusion. Why even have HDMI? If coax will do the same thing, and maybe do it better, I don't understand why it isn't being used?
But I think as MarkW states, it is a marketing decision, not a technical one. I am also surprised someone hasn't come up with a way to use it and not HDMI. Some way to "cheat" the system.

 

[adk highlander]

I understand the signal needs to be decoded. I think what I was trying to get the basics of, is what the limitation of Coax type cable is. I didn't understand how SINCE it CAN pass 1080p, why we don't use it as such. All the signals come in from Coax, and then we switch it over to HDMI, or whatever. We all use Component or HDMI it seems to me. So that was the confusion. Why even have HDMI? If coax will do the same thing, and maybe do it better, I don't understand why it isn't being used?
But I think as MarkW states, it is a marketing decision, not a technical one. I am also surprised someone hasn't come up with a way to use it and not HDMI. Some way to "cheat" the system.

Reread Gus's post. All of this is about content protection. HDCP and that HDMI they are able to implement protection that they cannot with Coax, composite or component types of connections.

Coax has enough bandwidth to carry up to a 1080p signal and more but the issue at hand is not about bandwidth, but about content protection. Content protection is what requires the use of a box to get the content to your TV.

 

[BMXTRIX]

So I have a Coax cable coming from my satellite that carries compressed HD A/V (audio being only 5.1). But I need to uncompress it to make it usable. So before the sat receiver, the coax is carrying a signal capable of eventually being HD, but not until it is uncompressed.

You kind of get it... The antenna points at the sky and gets signals from the satellites. Some of the signals are 480i, some are 1080i, some may be 720p, and some may even be 1080p. But, they are all scrambled together and mixed up, you need a satellite receiver box to make sense of this jumble and spit out ONE channel to watch.

Once the signal is uncompressed, it can only carry crappy 480i. Is this correct?

This is where you are most confused...
If you have a HD satellite receiver box, then it will decode, for example, HBO-HD, and can output HBO-HD over one of the HD connectors on the back of the box. These HD connectors will include component video and HDMI video output. If the box has s-video out, composite video out, or a coaxial out video connection, then the best video quality will be 480i, and it won't touch the other types of connections.

Use HDMI if you can... otherwise, use component video.

It sounds like the Sat Box receiver is the weak link.

If your satellite box is not a HD version, then it is definitely the weak link. You have zero HD capability without a HD satellite box.

Once it is uncompressed, could I use another device to make the signal better?

Yes, but it would only be marginally better, and it would be far less expensive to simply get a HD satellite box.

So with my current non-HD receiver, only putting out 480i, could I put another device between the sat receiver and my TV and boost the signal.

It's actually called upconversion, scaling, or video processing, and the answer is 'yes' as it is above, but the improvement would be marginal, and pricey.

This is more hypothetical, as I know the solution is just to buy a HD receiver. Just curious what happens to the extra uncompressed material. Is it lost forever once it goes through the sat receiver?

No, a non-HD sat receiver can't decode HBO-HD or the other HD channels at all. Sat receivers use their tuner to descramble and decompress ONE channel at a time. They could potentially try to decode HBO-HD, but they don't have the horsepower to do so fully, so they would fail at the process. Instead, you could get standard HBO from the box.

If you list the actual model number on the back of your satellite box, and what service you have, you can even get a more specific answer as to what you need to buy.