Hi-Fi Headphones are depressing

[jaxvon]

Although I have a 'real' system planned, I was looking into acquiring some hi-fi on the cheap, namely headphones, a headphone amp, and a good CD-Player. I started doing research on headphones (after I heard my friend's HD 595s) and found some disturbing stuff. Headphones are about as linear as a sine wave. Even The HD-650s and Grado RS-1s. People give all kinds of acclaim to these headphones when they're hearing sound that is vastlydifferent than what was outputted by their source.

The pics below are of some measurements taken from various headphones by Headphone.com. Speaker manufacturers could NEVER get away with stuff like this. Even $400 Axiom speakers measured in-room don't get this sloppy (not a rip on Axiom, but just a point). Ugh, this is so disappointing, because I was really looking forward to acquiring some cans and stuff to listen to. I haven't found any measurements of the Sennheiser Orpheus system, but then again that's probably because A. It costs $15,000 and B. I dont' think Sennheiser is making them any more. They are considered by many to be the best Headphones (and amp pair probably) ever made. They might be more linear, but I really dont' know.


Sennheiser HD-595, a pair I was thinking of buying:

Sennheiser HD-600:

Sennheiser HD-650

Beyerdynamic DT 880

Grado SR225:

Grado SR325:

Grado RS2:

Grado RS1:

AKG K 501:

Edit: They use a different system to measure the 'phones on Headphone.com. Here's the link.

Frustration. And by the way, if anyone knows of some headphones that actually resemble linearity (no, I don't need Mackie HR824 linearity), do tell. I really want to get my hands on some good 'phones so I can enjoy my music.

 

[JoeE SP9]

I don't know about the Senheiser's but I have a pair of Stax SR84's and have listened extensively to the Sigma's and Omega's. All in all I just don't "get" headphones. Maybe it is that creepy in your head between your ears effect. Maybe it is the response irregularities. The only time headphones sound remotely right to me is on binaural recordings. Some of them are extremely realistic. However, binaural recordings sound awful over loudspeakers. By the way, I've heard good things about the Etymotic Research in ear phones.

 

[WmAx]

You can NOT correlate the FR plots of headphones with what you you would hear directly as compared to a speaker response. The bass response to low midrange response is pretty accurate and you can cross-reference these, but once you get into high-midrange and treble........Headphoens directly interface with the ear(no off angle FR change due to head related transfer functins that would occur with listening to speakers), also the synthetic ear assembly used to measure hadphones creates multiple resonances that further effect the measurements in treble region.

The most 'linear' headphone I have used was the Sony MDR-7506. Using flat response measurment/instrumentation microphones, feed to a mixing board with all FX/EQ bypassed, I stood at the same position/distance as the mics and compared the headphone A-Bed with the live acoustic sources. The midrange and treble tonality of the headphone sounded almost just like the acoustic sources. However, I don't particuraly like the sound(note that liking has nothing to do with accuracy) of this headphone on most commercial music. But maybe you would? If you are familiar with Dunlavy speakers set up in a proper room(heavily damped walls) or B&W 802/801 Nautilus reference speakers in a proper room, then that is 'bascily' what the MDR-7506 sounds like, IMO.

(Not concerning absolute accuracy, as in the careful live comparisons I mentioned earlier) I find that the Senheisser HD-580/HD-600 sounds neutral and well balanced on classical/acoustic music. But I found this headphone to have treble that was rolled off beyond my tolerance when listening to rock, pop, eletronica, jazz, etc.. The most nuetral soudning headphone(perceived, not actual) I have heard on commercial recordings was the Stax Omega II. Note that this unit costs several times what I believe to be a fair price. If portability is not an issue, you can obtain any 'souind' you want with a high quality headphone by using a powerful DSP equalizer such as a Behringer DEQ2496. Unlike speakers, headphones do not have to contend with off axis response behaviour; their basic and small structures also have no where near the resonant problems of full range speaker enclosure. So, if you obtained a high quality and reasonable priced headhone like a Sony MDR-F1, Sennheiser HD-580, etc.; you can use the EQ to target just about any sound you want(if you put the time into it -- don't think that obtaining an 'ideal' sound for yourself with a powerful eq such as this is 'quick' -- it's not).

-Chris

Although I have a 'real' system planned, I was looking into acquiring some hi-fi on the cheap, namely headphones, a headphone amp, and a good CD-Player. I started doing research on headphones (after I heard my friend's HD 595s) and found some disturbing stuff. Headphones are about as linear as a sine wave. Even The HD-650s and Grado RS-1s. People give all kinds of acclaim to these headphones when they're hearing sound that is vastlydifferent than what was outputted by their source.

The pics below are of some measurements taken from various headphones by Headphone.com. Speaker manufacturers could NEVER get away with stuff like this. Even $400 Axiom speakers measured in-room don't get this sloppy (not a rip on Axiom, but just a point). Ugh, this is so disappointing, because I was really looking forward to acquiring some cans and stuff to listen to. I haven't found any measurements of the Sennheiser Orpheus system, but then again that's probably because A. It costs $15,000 and B. I dont' think Sennheiser is making them any more. They are considered by many to be the best Headphones (and amp pair probably) ever made. They might be more linear, but I really dont' know.


Sennheiser HD-595, a pair I was thinking of buying:

Sennheiser HD-600:

Sennheiser HD-650

Beyerdynamic DT 880

Grado SR225:

Grado SR325:

Grado RS2:

Grado RS1:

AKG K 501:

Edit: They use a different system to measure the 'phones on Headphone.com. Here's the link.

Frustration. And by the way, if anyone knows of some headphones that actually resemble linearity (no, I don't need Mackie HR824 linearity), do tell. I really want to get my hands on some good 'phones so I can enjoy my music.

 

[WmAx]

It's ture that with the current consumer technology, that headphones have quite a different soundstage presentation as compared to speakers. But many people seem to get used to it after a while. I enjoy hi quality headphones and speakers. But I can't go from one to the other without giving my ears a few minutes to relax -- the drastic difference is just too much all at once(at least for me). Some headphones may also produce a more spacious effect, according to how they position their drivers. I have a pair of Sony MDR-CD3000, which have a larger spatial effect then other headphones I have tried(except the MDR-R10 and AKG K1000). All of these examples did have drivers that were(or could be) positioned slightly in front of and at an angle to the ears. But I am not sure if this was just a coincedence(maybe imagination) or a real reason for such a percieved effect).

-Chris

I don't know about the Senheiser's but I have a pair of Stax SR84's and have listened extensively to the Sigma's and Omega's. All in all I just don't "get" headphones. Maybe it is that creepy in your head between your ears effect. Maybe it is the response irregularities. The only time headphones sound remotely right to me is on binaural recordings. Some of them are extremely realistic. However, binaural recordings sound awful over loudspeakers. By the way, I've heard good things about the Etymotic Research in ear phones.

 

[JoeE SP9]

I gave the SR84's to an audio buddie this afternoon. I hadn't used them in more than 2 years. I just can't get used to the in your head sound. I'll just have to listen to my subwoofered ES panels. I am a batchelor so I can enjoy music and/or movies at any and all hours.

 

[jaxvon]

So, would you guys recommend the HD-595s? I can get a pair for 200 bucks. They sound pretty good (from the listening I've done).

 

[djoxygen]

I'm going to second WmAx's Sony recommendation. I use MDR-7506 to DJ and for studio monitor 'phones at work, and MDR-V600 and -7506 at home to listen/enjoy and studio monitor. I believe the Sony's are as accurate as you're going to get (if that's what you're looking for) and the primary difference in Sony's models is where the low-end starts to roll off - very well represented in Sony's published specs - and features/ergonomics.

As always, your ears and brain have to make the final decision.

 

[djoxygen]

Oh, and as WmAx pointed out, the acoustic coupling of diaphragm to eardrum means that comparisons to loudspeakers are meaningless. If you can handle wearing earplugs (comfort-wise) you might want to consider in-ears, custom-fitted if you can afford them.

IMHO, if you pay much more than $100-$150 for headphones and you're not getting active ambient noise cancellation or custom-molded in-ears, you've probably paid too much. There's just not that much to mess up or improve when the speaker is that close to your ear.

 

[WmAx]

IMHO, if you pay much more than $100-$150 for headphones and you're not getting active ambient noise cancellation or custom-molded in-ears, you've probably paid too much. There's just not that much to mess up or improve when the speaker is that close to your ear.

I don't think it's fair to put such a narrow price limitation on that product. While it may not be *fair* to pay more based on what actually differentiates the headphones; often one may have to pay more to get the collective ergonomics and sound shape(frequency response) that they prefer. For example, I do not find the MDR-7506 to be comfortable for long durations. Also, I do not prefer the sound, though I find it to be very accurate tonally in as non-biased cmparision to live sound as I can manage(DBT not possible in any way that I can concieve). The Sony MDR-F1 is about $200 and it has a better sound(euphoricly) too my ears and is drastically more comfortable. BUt in the end I prefer the sound of a modified(cloth used over drivers to shelve high treble down slightly) MDR-CD3000 to nearly(single exception being Stax Omega II -- not practical to use for several reasons) every other headphone I have tried. It is true that these differences are most likely frequency response differences. Unfortunately, their is not yet a portable(small pocket size) DSP based EQ/headphone amp that would allow me to shape the frequency response to the degree I would require. If that device does show up, I will promptly abandon the MDR-CD3000, for it is too large and tends to be too hot in warm environments.

-Chris

 

[jaxvon]

So I did some more research and I found that headphones need to be rolled off in the highs to be percieved as flat due to the way high frequencies act around and in the ear.

I guess these headphones are actually pretty flat when listened to by a human. So I'm debating between the Sennheiser HD-595s and those Sony's. Still not sure right now (and funds are a little low too ).

For Chris, I've found some interesting sites that you may want to check out. First off is Siegfried Linkwitz's site. On his site, he also has a list of reference headphones where he also describes a way to EQ Etymotic Research earphones. Using the same kind of ideas, I bet you could make your own small EQ for your 'phones. You could also e-mail him about it.

Also, there is the the site HeadRoom where you can buy amps, including small pocket-size ones. I hope this helps you.


And to everyone else, thanks for the input!

 

[WmAx]

For Chris, I've found some interesting sites that you may want to check out.

Thank you for the consideration.

First off is Siegfried Linkwitz's site. On his site, he also has a list of reference headphones where he also describes a way to EQ Etymotic Research earphones. Using the same kind of ideas, I bet you could make your own small EQ for your 'phones. You could also e-mail him about it.

I am aware of Linkwitz's recomendations. Those are all in-ear phones. I can not tolerate such things. I prefer headphones.

Also, there is the the site HeadRoom where you can buy amps, including small pocket-size ones. I hope this helps you.

Unfortunately, the type of portable amp I was referring would have a digital 31 band graphic EQ along with several parametric bands. No such thing exists too my knowledge.

FYI, headphone.com is essentially a snake-oil peddlar. But they are a great source for headphones due to their generous tryout/return policies.

-Chris

 

[jaxvon]

Yeah, I grasped that snake oil thing after 5 minutes on the site. Still, it's nice to be able to look at a bunch of different products in one place. But yeah, if you venture into their cable section, you'll slip and fall on all the oil that's sitting around .

And as for your expectations of an amp, good luck. That's a lot of circuitry to stuff into something portable. I'm sure it could be done, but it'd take a good engineer and a nice chunk of cash.

 

[Unregistered]

Howdy,

I personally don't see that headphone.com carries much snake oil. Their amps are definitely overpriced, but not excessively so for small production markets, and they don't appear to be pitching "sonic wonders beyond all physical reason" in the form of exotic cables and tweaks.

As for your headphone choice, I strongly recommend going to a shop that carries the brands you are interested in. I shopped for headphones in your price range a few years back and had initially set my sights on a pair of mid/high end Sennheisers (which sounded better than the comparable Sony's at the BestBuy). Then I dropped into a hi-fi shop and compared the Sennheisers to Grados and was blown away by the difference. My preference was for the Grados, but others might prefer the Sennheisers, the point being that they just sounded and felt very different. No pictures, spec sheets or recommendations would have driven me to the Grados, but my ears did. I really think that headphones, more than any other audio hardware including speakers, need to be chosen by audition/comparison. Stop reading all this nonesense on the web (including this) and try for yourself.

 

[WmAx]

They definately contain a fair number of products that are way overpriced without proof of audible benefits:

A few quickly gathered pages of snakoil products:

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=3&subTopicID=31&productID=0050310001

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=20&subTopicID=167

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=20&subTopicID=77

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=3&subTopicID=31&productID=0050090100

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=3&subTopicID=31&productID=0050171010

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=3&subTopicID=31&productID=0050210000

Some pages quickly found that contain some good-ol' fashioned unsupported and speculative claims within them:

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=2&subTopicID=28

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=35

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=13&subTopicID=129

-Chris

Howdy,

I personally don't see that headphone.com carries much snake oil.

 

[Unregistered]

I don't equate overpriced conventional products with snake oil. All of the things listed were generally overpriced and overkill designs (hence overpriced). 'Snake oil' for me is selling products based on lies about their actual function. Two beautiful examples are :

http://www.bybeetech.com/

http://www.quantumqrt.com/

We have also seen metal cones to put on top of speakers, wooden knobs to enhance soundstaging etc...

 

[WmAx]

I don't equate overpriced conventional products with snake oil. All of the things listed were generally overpriced and overkill designs (hence overpriced).

Well, then our respective opinions must differ on this perspective. I consider items that are stratosphericly priced that do not offer real improvements to be 'snake oil'. Just 2 items pulled from my above links:

I consider a $250.00 *exotic* replacement cable for a headphone as opposed to a $15-$25 OEM replacement to be 'snake oil'.

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=3&subTopicID=31&productID=0050310001

I consider a $3,888.00 headphone amplifier to be 'snake oil'.

http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/614/index.html

Exactly what audible benefit does a $250 cable add to a headphone? Exactly how does a nearly $4,000.00 headphone amplifier improve audibly?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not nescesarrily against purchasing 'snake oil' products as long as one knows what they are purchasing is merely 'eyecandy' as opposed to something with a mysterious special audio quality. I've been guilty of buying some 'eyecandy' for myself in the past.

-Chris

 

[Mudcat]

In this link (thanks Chris)

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php...&subTopicID=167

Is this sentence:

"In addition, the solder paste has plastic in it that comes to the surface upon melting, sealing the solder joint so that no oxidation occurs in the joint over time."

This is not only snake oil, it will actually harm the product. The plastic will vaporize when the solder melts and leave tiny little pores where moisture will condense as the solder cools. If you want to cover your solder job with plastic, then spray on some polyurethane from WinMax after you finish the entire board.

 

[jaxvon]

Noting how there IS all that snake oil out there, does anyone know of some good headphone amps that can be had without breaking the bank? I'm looking at either the Sennheiser HD595s or those Sonys recommended earlier. Perhaps Grados, but they sell Snake oil hardcore. The Senns and the Sonys are both are both higher impedance 'phones than normal ones, so I would reason that having something that's designed to drive them would perform better. I may also be insane, I'm not sure which.

I consider a $250.00 *exotic* replacement cable for a headphone as opposed to a $15-$25 OEM replacement to be 'snake oil'.

Definitely. My friend's HD-595s (that I'm using right now ) come standard with an OFC cable. I guess you could make somewhat of an 'improvement', but I really, REALLY doubt there'd be an audible difference. Maybe if you happened to be sitting in front of a big radio transmitter, then yes. Still, dropping 250 on some wire is not going to help you.

What I'm trying to accomplish here is some hi-fi on the cheap. I'd of course like to get an actual speaker setup, but that also takes up some room (and money) that I don't have right now. Man, I almost wish Axiom would make headphones so I could get real quality at a price that makes sense and real science to verify that I'm getting what I think I am.


Damn my addiction to music. It's such a drain on time and money. But I still love it...

 

[Mudcat]

Try ALTO. They have 4 and 6 "channel" headphone amps that are realitively inexpensive. Sorry I do not have a link.

 

[WmAx]

Noting how there IS all that snake oil out there, does anyone know of some good headphone amps that can be had without breaking the bank? I'm looking at either the Sennheiser HD595s or those Sonys recommended earlier. Perhaps Grados, but they sell Snake oil hardcore. The Senns and the Sonys are both are both higher impedance 'phones than normal ones, so I would reason that having something that's designed to drive them would perform better. I may also be insane, I'm not sure which.

On most headphones, the frequency response will be the same within 1dB or so whetehr it's driven from an amplifier with 0.001 ohm output impedance or 120 ohm output impedance. As a matter of interesting fact -- IEC 61938 international standard specified that headphones should be designed to work optimally from a 120 ohm output impedance amplifier. Many devices, though, including portables, often have much lower output impedances actually into the single digits. The only concievable problem you may have is insufficient voltage to drive certain high impedance headphones to a suitable SPL. The Sony MDR-7506 is a very efficient headphone and can be driven from virtually any portable with adequate SPL levels. I am not sure about the HD-595.

Definitely. My friend's HD-595s (that I'm using right now )

If you really enjoy this headphone, why not buy one already?

Man, I almost wish Axiom would make headphones so I could get real quality at a price that makes sense and real science to verify that I'm getting what I think I am.

I don't know if your familiar with the late/great Dunlavy Audio Labs, but they were hardcore objectivist designers who valued accuracy over anything else. John Dunlavy, the CEO and chief engineer recommended the Sony MDR-7506 on several occasions as the most accurate headphone available. Read his description of how/why he considered them as such about halfway down on this link:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Dunlavy+Audio+Labs+7506&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=6mts8f$507@jamesv.warren.mentorg.com&rnum=4

I performed a similar experiment and had the same results.

Please note that as I have said before, though these are extremely accurate, this may not be the ideal tonal balance for your preferences. I prefer other(colored) headphones to these for musical entertainment.

-Chris