Help with amp selection polk LSIM speakers

[davehall83]

Hey folks so i have a 40 long by 15 wide room but the audio is only focused on the 15x20long area. I have a marantz sr8012 receiver and have a dolby atmos 7.2.4 setup and this will be mainly used for home theater and gaming.

I have:

Front L/R - Polk Lsim 707 towers
Center- Polk Lsim 706c
Surrounds Sides - Polk Lsim 703s
Surround Backs - Polk Lsim 703s
Atmos Heights Top Front and Top Rear total of 4 - Polk 900 LS ceiling speakers.

Subs - 2 SVS PB2000’s


My marantz is 140w per channel and the polka can take 250 to 300w. I tried crown drive core xls 2502 and a 1002 for my budget but realized they may not be best choice. I want to spend no more than $1200.00 to power the front 3 channels. I probably should amp the rest of the speakers too but first thought is get the fronts amped. I was looking at audio source and niles amps too like the AD3002 and run it bridged just buy 3 of them. I don’t want to loose the marantz sound quality so any suggestions let me know

 

[lovinthehd]

What did you realize wasn't the best choice as regards the Crowns? You'd rather have Niles or Audio Source instead why? You might try using this spl calculator to get an idea of your power needs for your setup since you don't provide listening distance nor levels you listen at. Just because the Polks are rated for amps up to 300w doesn't mean you need that much amp for your use....

 

[davehall83]

What did you realize wasn't the best choice as regards the Crowns? You'd rather have Niles or Audio Source instead why? You might try using this spl calculator to get an idea of your power needs for your setup since you don't provide listening distance nor levels you listen at. Just because the Polks are rated for amps up to 300w doesn't mean you need that much amp for your use....

So listening distance is 11 feet away from front stage. The crowns i was gold at least in the XLS series don’t have the Lower THD specs and i was getting a ground loop in them i realize i can get an isolator for that and fine with that but crown thought to ensure i get my lows as well i should maybe consider XTI series which requires me to convert from rca to xlr. I thought maybe i would get better sound quality out of a “home theater line” amplifier but i’m not sure. Your right i don’t need 300w but i just want to get an amp that does at least 250 into 8 ohms even if i have to bridge and do one amp per speaker etc.

 

[lovinthehd]

You still haven't mentioned listening levels, so hard to advise. Did you try the calculator?

XLS may not have the best specs for THD, but they're quite adequate, unlikely an audible difference between that and the other amps you're considering (keep in mind it's generally considered that THD less than 1% is not audible....and your speakers have higher THD in any case). Ground loop hum is a separate issue, you can lift the ground, isolate it, or solve your ground loop hum issue. In my last house due the way the cable for internet/tv was grounded I also had ground loop issues with my XLS amps, but none in my current place. I use several XLS amps.

The difference between 250wpc and 300wpc is less than 1dB, unlikely you could tell the difference. If you bridge an amp you may shortchange yourself on ability to handle low impedance, too. I wouldn't be surprised that your avr isn't already sufficient....

 

[davehall83]

You still haven't mentioned listening levels, so hard to advise. Did you try the calculator?

XLS may not have the best specs for THD, but they're quite adequate, unlikely an audible difference between that and the other amps you're considering (keep in mind it's generally considered that THD less than 1% is not audible....and your speakers have higher THD in any case). Ground loop hum is a separate issue, you can lift the ground, isolate it, or solve your ground loop hum issue. In my last house due the way the cable for internet/tv was grounded I also had ground loop issues with my XLS amps, but none in my current place. I use several XLS amps.

The difference between 250wpc and 300wpc is less than 1dB, unlikely you could tell the difference. If you bridge an amp you may shortchange yourself on ability to handle low impedance, too. I wouldn't be surprised that your avr isn't already sufficient....

So i ran the SPL with my numbers see picture. Didn't say i didn't like the crown amps but i just had the hum issue and want to make sure the frequency response and bass isn't lifted out of the signal as well. I know that can be a issue with ground loop isolators too. I looked at a ground loop isolator by rolls the link to it is here:

https://www.amazon.com/rolls-HE18-Hum-Eliminator/dp/B004E4LU0W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524440510&sr=8-1&keywords=rolls+buzz+off

However i saw some complaints about the box actually filtering low's out of it and i have heard you have to be careful with that. I saw another one here that may be better for that

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/T8--art-t8-8-channel-hum-eliminator-isolation-rack?gclid=Cj0KCQjw5fDWBRDaARIsAA5uWThISB67EVu8jR0RqyHdSxhtYDfswX4ghCpr57ChYU3fkH15otznx-gaArYIEALw_wcB

So the art one looks good or even better. I usually have the volume on the marantz at 72 to 80db. It does sound good but i want to get that extra push so if you can help me out with some recommendations maybe crown XTI series but i have to go from RCA to XLR or maybe QSC amps or go with the audio source ones etc. Parasound is another thought but wow expensive and i thought about emotiva XPA 3 the only negative thing is i have tried their speakers and couldn't stand them had to send them back maybe their amps are better for the price.

 

[lovinthehd]

So i ran the SPL with my numbers see picture. Didn't say i didn't like the crown amps but i just had the hum issue and want to make sure the frequency response and bass isn't lifted out of the signal as well. I know that can be a issue with ground loop isolators too. I looked at a ground loop isolator by rolls the link to it is here:

https://www.amazon.com/rolls-HE18-Hum-Eliminator/dp/B004E4LU0W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524440510&sr=8-1&keywords=rolls+buzz+off

However i saw some complaints about the box actually filtering low's out of it and i have heard you have to be careful with that. I saw another one here that may be better for that

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/T8--art-t8-8-channel-hum-eliminator-isolation-rack?gclid=Cj0KCQjw5fDWBRDaARIsAA5uWThISB67EVu8jR0RqyHdSxhtYDfswX4ghCpr57ChYU3fkH15otznx-gaArYIEALw_wcB

So the art one looks good or even better. I usually have the volume on the marantz at 72 to 80db. It does sound good but i want to get that extra push so if you can help me out with some recommendations maybe crown XTI series but i have to go from RCA to XLR or maybe QSC amps or go with the audio source ones etc. Parasound is another thought but wow expensive and i thought about emotiva XPA 3 the only negative thing is i have tried their speakers and couldn't stand them had to send them back maybe their amps are better for the price.

Just try a cheater plug first to see if lifting the ground is the issue before buying a DI box or other solution (or better yet solve your ground issue).

I've seen some discussions for use with subs where there's a concern with sub 20Hz filtering built into the XLS, and when I corresponded with Crown they confirmed as much (they advised "It’s a 12dB per/oct roll off. It’s not fully flat to 20Hz, roll off will start a little bit above 20Hz."), altho some who have done their own testing say they aren't seeing as significant a roll off to confirm. Wouldn't matter much in your use for your mains in any case. Not familiar with claims as to hum eliminators changing frequency response, never used one nor looked into them. You could check out the Crown XLi amps, they don't have dsp that you don't need but still retain rca connectors.

Many pro amps only have the balanced connections but you can easily use a converter cable. XLS is one of the low cost offerings with consumer friendly features such as the rca connectors and adjustable sensitivity, haven't looked at XTi for a while but seems they're rated similarly spec-wise (and think same Drivecore amp guts) but with more capable/useful dsp but without the rca/adjustable sensitivity. You can spend more for sure on an amp than on the XLS, but not a lot less...Behringer iNukes come to mind but then fan noise can be an issue (but if you have an equipment closet...). QSC could be an alternative as well and think they have units with rca inputs too...ask @Verdinut about QSC, he uses some and is more familiar with them than I am.

Of course it's easy to find more expensive amps....personally I'd go for SpeakerPower, Powersoft or LabGruppen over my XLS for sub duties ideally but $$ and I really don't need the additional power either. For consumer brands Emotiva, Monoprice Monolith/Outlaw/ATI stuff might be a consideration. Parasound I think is overpriced but have some good stuff. I haven't looked around a lot lately either.

If you're using volume levels (calibrated I assume) on the absolute scale of 72-80 you like it pretty dang loud, so you just may benefit from a more powerful amp to at least provide a bit more headroom (keep in mind it takes a doubling of power to gain merely 3dB, and your speakers have sq limits, too). What issues are you having particularly at these volume levels now? What is the extra push you imagine?

 

[Verdinut]

Just try a cheater plug first to see if lifting the ground is the issue before buying a DI box or other solution (or better yet solve your ground issue).

I've seen some discussions for use with subs where there's a concern with sub 20Hz filtering built into the XLS, and when I corresponded with Crown they confirmed as much (they advised "It’s a 12dB per/oct roll off. It’s not fully flat to 20Hz, roll off will start a little bit above 20Hz."), altho some who have done their own testing say they aren't seeing as significant a roll off to confirm. Wouldn't matter much in your use for your mains in any case. Not familiar with claims as to hum eliminators changing frequency response, never used one nor looked into them. You could check out the Crown XLi amps, they don't have dsp that you don't need but still retain rca connectors.

Many pro amps only have the balanced connections but you can easily use a converter cable. XLS is one of the low cost offerings with consumer friendly features such as the rca connectors and adjustable sensitivity, haven't looked at XTi for a while but seems they're rated similarly spec-wise (and think same Drivecore amp guts) but with more capable/useful dsp but without the rca/adjustable sensitivity. You can spend more for sure on an amp than on the XLS, but not a lot less...Behringer iNukes come to mind but then fan noise can be an issue (but if you have an equipment closet...). QSC could be an alternative as well and think they have units with rca inputs too...ask @Verdinut about QSC, he uses some and is more familiar with them than I am.

Of course it's easy to find more expensive amps....personally I'd go for SpeakerPower, Powersoft or LabGruppen over my XLS for sub duties ideally but $$ and I really don't need the additional power either. For consumer brands Emotiva, Monoprice Monolith/Outlaw/ATI stuff might be a consideration. Parasound I think is overpriced but have some good stuff. I haven't looked around a lot lately either.

If you're using volume levels (calibrated I assume) on the absolute scale of 72-80 you like it pretty dang loud, so you just may benefit from a more powerful amp to at least provide a bit more headroom (keep in mind it takes a doubling of power to gain merely 3dB, and your speakers have sq limits, too). What issues are you having particularly at these volume levels now? What is the extra push you imagine?

@lovinthehd,

FYI, QSC Audio have only one line of power amps that have RCA inputs: The Live Sound GX Series.

Cheers,

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I tried crown drive core xls 2502 and a 1002 for my budget but realized they may not be best choice...I was looking at audio source and niles amps...

No way in hells I would buy Niles or especially those crappy Audio Source amps over the Crown amps!

If you actually need an amp or just DESIRE an amp like most audiophiles, then for $1300 delivered, I got just the amp for you - the Monolith 7x200 Watts amp B-stock with full 5YR warranty from ATI.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=18682

If you are not familiar with ATI, they have $8K amps as well as other amps. ATI also makes amps for the likes of Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio. They also own Theta Digital, which makes $12K amps and $20K pre-pros.

ATI also makes amps for Outlaw Audio and Monolith.

I consider the Monolith 200x7 Amp B-stock for $1300 and the Denon X3000 series for $600 (on sale) products of the year, every year.

Of course, you already have that great Marantz flagship 8000 series AVR, so don't get any ideas about "upgrading" it because you won't get any better sound than your Marantz regardless of price!

 

[davehall83]

No way in hells I would buy Niles or especially those crappy Audio Source amps over the Crown amps!

If you actually need an amp or just DESIRE an amp like most audiophiles, then for $1300 delivered, I got just the amp for you - the Monolith 7x200 Watts amp B-stock with full 5YR warranty from ATI.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=18682

If you are not familiar with ATI, they have $8K amps as well as other amps. ATI also makes amps for the likes of Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio. They also own Theta Digital, which makes $12K amps and $20K pre-pros.

ATI also makes amps for Outlaw Audio and Monolith.

I consider the Monolith 200x7 Amp B-stock for $1300 and the Denon X3000 series for $600 (on sale) products of the year, every year.

Of course, you already have that great Marantz flagship 8000 series AVR, so don't get any ideas about "upgrading" it because you won't get any better sound than your Marantz regardless of price!

So i was looking at parasound A31 then i saw the price tag wow but i hear it sounds good. I love the sound of the marantz and want an amp similar to it. I was looking at the emotiva XPA-3 Gen 3 it’s a good price but i’m worries how it will sound too bright compared to marantz? I did see those monoprice amps but i know monoprice sells some cheap stuff lol but it’s not bad just never thought about buying an amp from them. I also saw D-Sonic that one got me close to buying but of course price. But honestly with running the polk lsim series speakers is the emotiva the best way to go or do you think i need to go parasound or d-sonic or outlaw etc to get the marantz sound i’m looking for

 

[lovinthehd]

I think you're off on the sound factor of the 8012 as projected into similar "sound" in outboard amp characteristics...if the outboard amp is good (i.e. simply amplifies, doesn't add/subtract from the signal) then it won't matter, you still retain the characteristics of your 8012.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I did see those monoprice amps but i know monoprice sells some cheap stuff lol but it’s not bad just never thought about buying an amp from them.

Monoprice doesn’t make these Monolith amps.

ATI makes the Monolith Amps and services these amps.

The only thing Monoprice does is sell these amps.

It’s the same way with all the amps ATI makes for Outlaw, Cary Audio, Mark Levinson, Lexicon, etc.

ATI makes these amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So i was looking at parasound A31 then i saw the price tag wow but i hear it sounds good.

No Parasound amp will sound better than any amps from Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio, Theta Digital, B&K, Outlaw, or Monoprice that are made by ATI in California.

Made by ATI.

 

[davehall83]

No Parasound amp will sound better than any amps from Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio, Theta Digital, B&K, Outlaw, or Monoprice that are made by ATI in California.

Made by ATI.

Ok got it, what about the Emotiva amp the XPA-3? Any thoughts on it?

 

[davehall83]

I think you're off on the sound factor of the 8012 as projected into similar "sound" in outboard amp characteristics...if the outboard amp is good (i.e. simply amplifies, doesn't add/subtract from the signal) then it won't matter, you still retain the characteristics of your 8012.

So what your saying is the amp just adds power and doesn't take any factor into how the marantz thats pushing the signal will sound it will still sound marantz quality and the amp just gives it power?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok got it, what about the Emotiva amp the XPA-3? Any thoughts on it?

I'm probably a bit brash on this , but I personally don't compare Emotiva to the likes of Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio, Theta Digital, ATI, or anything made by ATI.

Well, okay, maybe very brash.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So what your saying is the amp just adds power and doesn't take any factor into how the marantz thats pushing the signal will sound it will still sound marantz quality and the amp just gives it power?

When any sound/music is made, it can be measured in the form of the Frequency Response (FR).

The sound made can be adversely affected by distortion (THD) and noise (SNR).

When the FR is measured and looks like 20Hz-20kHz +/- 1dB, it means that it is very FLAT and Accurate.

When you measure any of these good quality solid-state Amps, and even $300 AVRs, the FR is often 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.1dB!

So the FR tolerance for amps is usually +/- 0.1dB to +/-0.5dB.

The SNR and THD measured on these same amps and AVRs are completely INAUDIBLE.

Take home message: these amps are EXTREMELY accurate and they don't cause any adverse effects on the sound.

Another way of saying is that these amps don't have a sound signature of their own.

These amps are extremely accurate and they just amplify the sound.

Now the weak link is the loudspeaker, which usually has a FR tolerance of +/- 3.0dB (considered more accurate) to +/- 6.0dB (like B&W and other speakers that are considered by some people to be not as accurate).

 

[davehall83]

When any sound/music is made, it can be measured in the form of the Frequency Response (FR).

The sound made can be adversely affected by distortion (THD) and noise (SNR).

When the FR is measured and looks like 20Hz-20kHz +/- 1dB, it means that it is very FLAT and Accurate.

When you measure any of these good quality solid-state Amps, and even $300 AVRs, the FR is often 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.1dB!

So the FR tolerance for amps is usually +/- 0.1dB to +/-0.5dB.

The SNR and THD measured on these same amps and AVRs are completely INAUDIBLE.

Take home message: these amps are EXTREMELY accurate and they don't cause any adverse effects on the sound.

Another way of saying is that these amps don't have a sound signature of their own.

These amps are extremely accurate and they just amplify the sound.

Now the weak link is the loudspeaker, which usually has a FR tolerance of +/- 3.0dB (considered more accurate) to +/- 6.0dB (like B&W and other speakers that are considered by some people to be not as accurate).

So for the money would the emotiva XPA-3 compare to any of this or the DR3? Cost is a big factor and just trying to find a 3 channel amp at 300 WPC or going with the outlaws at 300W x 7 is around $3400 and i want to stay in $2400 or less. The emotiva will certainly do that but what is the issue you have with emotiva would love to hear it because thats going to help me decide where to go with this. I have no expereince with there amps. I wish the monolith had 300 WPC but i cant find one that does.

 

[PENG]

So what your saying is the amp just adds power and doesn't take any factor into how the marantz thats pushing the signal will sound it will still sound marantz quality and the amp just gives it power?

Correct, and if the Marantz has a certain sound of it's own then they should have disclosed such design philosophy, but they have not. So I am going to assume they designed and built their products to sound transparent, just amplify the signal as accurate as they can, unless DSPs and/or any other sound characteristics altering features are engaged. I have owned a few Marantz products and I do consider them transparent, enough for me anyway.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So for the money would the emotiva XPA-3 compare to any of this or the DR3? Cost is a big factor and just trying to find a 3 channel amp at 300 WPC or going with the outlaws at 300W x 7 is around $3400 and i want to stay in $2400 or less. The emotiva will certainly do that but what is the issue you have with emotiva would love to hear it because thats going to help me decide where to go with this. I have no expereince with there amps. I wish the monolith had 300 WPC but i cant find one that does.

First, I think any of these good quality amps (Emotiva, Crown, ATI's, Parasound, etc.) will sound excellent.

Regardless of whether they (very subjectively) sound "different", they will all sound great!

If I need a "cost-big-factor" 300WPC amp, I would get the Crown XLS 2002 amp, which is 375W/650W/1050W x 2Ch into 8/4/2 ohms, respectively, for $439.

https://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLS2002-Two-channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B011QLC6BC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524756399&sr=8-1&keywords=crown+xls+2002

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xls-2002

These Crown or QSC or Yamaha pro-amps won't sound any less than any Emotiva amp or other amps.

However, these Pro-style amps will not look as pretty aesthetically.

And if you are not familiar with Crown amps, they are made by Harman International, the same company that owns $20K Mark Levinson amps, $22K Revel Salon2, $80K JBL Synthesis.

 

[davehall83]

First, I think any of these good quality amps (Emotiva, Crown, ATI's, Parasound, etc.) will sound excellent.

Regardless of whether they (very subjectively) sound "different", they will all sound great!

If I need a "cost-big-factor" 300WPC amp, I would get the Crown XLS 2002 amp, which is 375W/650W/1050W x 2Ch into 8/4/2 ohms, respectively, for $439.

https://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLS2002-Two-channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B011QLC6BC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524756399&sr=8-1&keywords=crown+xls+2002

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xls-2002

These Crown or QSC or Yamaha pro-amps won't sound any less than any Emotiva amp or other amps.

However, these Pro-style amps will not look as pretty aesthetically.

And if you are not familiar with Crown amps, they are made by Harman International, the same company that owns $20K Mark Levinson amps, $22K Revel Salon2, $80K JBL Synthesis.

Got it i looked at those crowns before not bad. I am stuck between the parasound and emotiva lol. The parasound no doubt or even the ATI's, D-Sonic will all have that quality i am looking for. The emotiva i dont know at all and not sure. I know i didn't like their T2, C2 and B1 speakers i had them and sent them back because the clarity was just not there and ended up with the polk lsim series which was right up my alley. I have been looking at safe and sound their b stock as well as new stock for parasound. There are the parasound classic amps which i could save almost $1,200 on the 3 channel need for now if i go with the parasound 2250 v2 i guess the main difference is one has a different style amp vs the other but not sure what difference if any i would see between that and their halo A31. The emotiva for about $700 more i can go with the XPA-DR3 which gives me alot more power. I know my speakers goto 300w and thats it but having more head room is not a bad thing. One thing i cant find anywhere is more than 250 watts per channel into 8 ohms for a 3 channel or 2 channel amp. The emotiva however you would get that. I did see reviews online about it "sounding bright" and someone who went from emotiva to the parasound said it sounded more natural and smooth if thats the case i may have to stick with parasound or something of that make.