Help - upgrade path

[seekr613]

we've been in our new house for about three years now - so far, I haven't been able to dial-in our living room (our main tv and music listening area) quite the way I wanted. It's a large, open concept space that includes the kitchen behind, a two-story fireplace area with floor to ceiling windows to the left, and a large patio door to the right. I've attached a floor plan to help you all visualize the space - "x" marks roughly where the tv is installed.

The width of the entire space, including the fireplace area, is about 28ft, and from the tv to the back wall of the kitchen is about 30ft. The main couch is about 12ft' from the tv and 11ft from speakers, which are about 9' apart, and can be pulled out 1ft from the wall (max).

We have a Sony 75" 950H.. it's perfect for the space. The issue has always been the sound. It's obviously a challenging space, but I want it to be better for both music and home theatre. The room does have three large rugs scattered about, including between the mains and couch, and four plush couches.

Current gear
Amp - Denon 3600h
Mains - Revel concerta f36
Centre - Energy C-C1
Sub - Paradigm PS-1000
No surrounds, no Atmos.

Sources are mainly Spotify Connect streaming through the Denon and sometimes a Technics 1200 for vinyl. Video source is streaming services via the Sony.

So... My question, if you've been patient enough to read this far, is what do I prioritize in order to improve this setup for both music and theatre? We listen to music a lot, usually while cooking, moving around the room, eating, dancing, etc. Focused listening might happen about once a week. Right now it sounds...ok. it gets pretty loud and music sounds pretty clear throughout the living areas - but I have to believe it could be better.
For theatre, I notice sub integration isn't great, dialogue could be much clearer, and I really miss having surround speakers, and would also like to have Atmos. Movies don't sound big, clear or immersive enough.

Questions
1. Where can I install rears/surrounds? I thought about doing one pair of Atmos speakers just ahead of the couch, and one set of rear surrounds, also in the ceiling, behind the couch. I recognize ceiling rear speakers are not ideal, but I can't figure out where else to put them, unless they go on top of the kitchen cabinets, about 16ft behind the listening position and about 8.5ft off the ground. Wiring them there will be a pain but I could probably manage it. But would it really sound better than putting them in the ceiling behind the couch? Are there any location options I'm not seeing?

2. Upgrade the Main speakers? - I like the Revels... but I have an upgrade itch. What could I get that would better suit the room and sound great for all kinds of music and HT? Note I have a pair of ohm Walsh 4s that I want to try in this main system, but they sound "off" and tinny in this room. I suspect the foam surrounds are failing and plan to take them to Ohm for a check up on my next trip to NYC. I also think they need way more power. They are currently in my bedroom with an HK3490 where they sound better, but still not quite right.

3. Is it power? Should I add a 2-channel power amp, like hypex ncore, to really bring the mains to life in this large space? This would likely help the Ohms, if they end up moving to the main room, and it might help any mains you guys recommend, or even the current Revels.

4. Is it the sub? Current sub is an older, mediocre sub, quite boomy and not up to current standards, I don't think. But maybe that's due to my challenging room. Should I focus here first, maybe add something like two RSL speed woofers with wireless adaptors?

5. Is it the centre channel? It's older and was part of my first HT setup - was great in a small apartment in 2005, but perhaps not up to snuff in current use.

6. Is it something else? Open to ideas. Room treatments will be next to impossible, though perhaps something discreet just behind the main towers could be possible.

Thanks for reading, and looking forward to your advice.

 

[Mikado463]

Now that's a challenge ! I'm a two channel guy so I'll let the 'multi-channel' experts chime in with hopefully the help you need but I suspect 'compromise' will be the order of the day ! As for Revel speakers, I'm a fan (Studio 2's), so I don't think there's a problem there. Given what I see, a minimum of 2 subs would be in order.

Good luck !

 

[everettT]

I stopped reading after your current equipment, which your sub is the glaring hole. So if it were me, that would be first. Adding surrounds can be an inexpensive upgrade, the sub can't be, IMHO. Your mains are good speakers, so unless you just want to do it, no reason with sound quality to do so. The center would be my second upgrade choice after the sub, thosee two will have more of an impact on your experience.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Totally agree with Everett.

 

[Swerd]

Keep your Revel speakers. They seem to be decent, and replacing them with something better may cost as much as double their price. But look into:

• A better sub-woofer, or two
• A better center speaker. What does Revel sell?
• Get a more powerful amp for the Revels. The Denon's 105 wpc isn't enough for that room. This 2-channel Hypex NC502MP would be excellent.
• I really don't have good ideas for the rear speakers. I think ceiling speakers aren't worth the cost of installing them. That leaves smaller 2-way speakers on stands flanking the couch, or hung on brackets from the ceiling. Those brackets must allow tilting & aiming the speakers.
• I personally wouldn't bother with Atmos.

How high is your ceiling?

Your diagram didn't show where the couch is. I assume it faces the TV with it's back toward the kitchen. You had said "The main couch is about 1ft' from the tv and 11ft from speakers, which are about 9' apart, and can be pulled out 1ft from the wall (max)." Is that 1ft' a typo, or is your vision especially bad ?

 

[seekr613]

Keep your Revel speakers. They seem to be decent, and replacing them with something better may cost as much as double their price. But look into:

• A better sub-woofer, or two
• A better center speaker. What does Revel sell?
• Get a more powerful amp for the Revels. The Denon's 105 wpc isn't enough for that room. This 2-channel Hypex NC502MP would be excellent.
• I really don't have good ideas for the rear speakers. I think ceiling speakers aren't worth the cost of installing them. That leaves smaller 2-way speakers on stands flanking the couch, or hung on brackets from the ceiling. Those brackets must allow tilting & aiming the speakers.
• I personally wouldn't bother with Atmos.

How high is your ceiling?

Your diagram didn't show where the couch is. I assume it faces the TV with it's back toward the kitchen. You had said "The main couch is about 1ft' from the tv and 11ft from speakers, which are about 9' apart, and can be pulled out 1ft from the wall (max)." Is that 1ft' a typo, or is your vision especially bad ?

Corrected, thanks. Couch is about 12ft from the tv - facing the tv and back to the kitchen.

Ceilings are 9ft.

 

[-Jim-]

I'm with the majority here in that get better Subwoofers and a matching (used?) Revel Center if possible would be a good first move. I'd probably add surrounds on stands at ear level slightly behind the couch (within Dolby specs). But for grins, and as you already have them, once the Ohm Walsh 4s are repaired (?) I'd put them there as they are near ear height. They have the same nominal impedance as the Revels (6 ohms) but aren't quiet as efficient at 89 versus 91dB (2.83V @ 1M). Your Denon shouldn't have a problem driving all of them.

By the way, as per your dimensions, I assumed the primary listening position is 10 feet from the speakers (one to two feet away from the wall). And only looking at the Revels, your system will achieve 107 dB which is beyond "uncomfortably loud" (100 dB) and approaching a "Jet fly-over" at 300 meters (110 dB). Once you get a couple of Subs properly arranged, and the bass management (via Audyssey or manual) pulls a lot of that effort away from your ear (Bed) level speakers, the power required from the Denon will drop significantly. If the distance is only 8 feet the SPL at the primary listening position climbs to 109.8 dB which can cause hearing damage.

Check this out:
Sounds less than 75 dB have no significant effect on our hearing. Exposure to sounds above 85 dB causes short term hearing losses called temporary threshold shifts [2]. If this occurs, your ear becomes less sensitive, and sounds seem quieter than normal. After some time, normal hearing returns. Repeated exposure to sounds that cause temporary threshold shifts results in permanent damage to the ear in the form of a permanent threshold shift . The ear loses sensitivity in the frequencies 3,000 Hz through 6,000 Hz, resulting in a "notch" in the hearing range. Time of exposure is important, the louder the sound, the less exposure time before permanent damage sets in.

Calculate the volume of the space before deciding on Subs. You can get wireless packages from quiet a few vendors these days, and that makes wiring them up a breeze.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[seekr613]

I stopped reading after your current equipment, which your sub is glaring hole. So if it were me, that would be first. Adding surrounds can be an inexpensive upgrade, the sub can't be, IMHO. Your mains are good speakers, so unless you just want to do it, no reason with sound quality to do so. The center would be my second upgrade choice after the sub, thosee two will have more of an impact on your experience.

Which sub would you recommend, and one or two, placed where? I'm thinking front corners ...

 

[Kingnoob]

Totally agree with Everett.

Yeah go with what he said !!
the Revel concerta f36 are really nice looking. Can’t believe op thinks they are the problem, wish I had money for something that nice . I’d probably run phantom , my current fronts suck for phantom aren’t good enough for that .
Subwoofer sub forum might help ?
Sub in using is junk right now haha, too boomy no low end .

 

[everettT]

Which sub would you recommend, and one or two, placed where? I'm thinking front corners ...

Any size constraints? Budget?

 

[seekr613]

Any size constraints? Budget?

I'm leaning to RSL because they're compact, inexpensive and have a great rep. If I have to get two subs, I would want to keep them small, preferably white, and less expensive.

However, if one will do, then budget can double and a single large black box would probably be ok.

 

[everettT]

I'm leaning to RSL because they're compact, inexpensive and have a great rep. If I have to get two subs, I would want to keep them small, preferably white, and less expensive.

However, if one will do, then budget can double and a single large black box would probably be ok.

With your open space, I'd recommend more the the RSL if movie content is important. They have a great rep for what they are, but they're still budget subwoofers. Small with performance isn't cheap and you're upgrading not making lateral moves.

You should think over what the maximum you're willing to spend is and if small is still apart of the equation, then think at least 1k per sub to get anything meaningful over what you're using or considering.

 

[seekr613]

Thanks, appreciate that advice as I didn't realize that speedwoofers are not considered strong performers.

 

[Mikado463]

Do some research and read up on subwoofer placement, 'sub-crawl' is a legitimate way of doing it ! my guess is for two you will want placement other than both being in the front corners

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thanks, appreciate that advice as I didn't realize that speedwoofers are not considered strong performers.

Well they actually are very good. As long as the room isn’t very big. Something to consider too, at cylinder subs from svs. They are much taller, but only 16”dia.

 

[everettT]

Thanks, appreciate that advice as I didn't realize that speedwoofers are not considered strong performers.

They are, just in their category or slightly above depending on who and what you're comparing them to. They definitely have value and a place...

 

[seekr613]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

What about something like a Philharmonic BMR tower - could I get away with no subs in my room? Or mains with integrated powered woofers?

Or, going totally different - something like BMR bookshelves, sitting on two large subs?

What would work best in a room like mine ?

The reason I'm asking - even though we have a large space, I'm just not sure multiple large subs will fit in with our plans for the house.

For those who focused on my centre channel needs - could I build something like a BMR centre? Building my own speaker appeals to me, just not sure it will integrate well with the revels or Ohm Walsh, if those move to the main system.

Thanks again!

 

[Swerd]

What about something like a Philharmonic BMR tower – could I get away with no subs in my room? Or mains with integrated powered woofers?

The Philharmonic Audio BMR Tower is an absolutely awesome speaker. I've heard it several times, and I also know the designer, Dennis Murphy (be warned, I am a fanboy). To directly answer to your question, yes, in my opinion, the bass from BMR Towers speakers is enough to allow omitting a sub woofer. This would be for music and not movies. However, my answer does not take into account the acoustics of your room. And, their cost is essentially twice that of your Revel F36 speakers.

Also, if you do use an external sub woofer, in your AVR set up menu, set the BMR Towers to be Large, not Small. That sends full bass signals to the BMR Towers as well as the sub woofer.

On paper, the BMR Towers are rated (86 dB, 6 ohms) as less sensitive than the Revel F36 (91 dB, 6 ohms). Dennis Murphy always rates the sensitivity of his speakers quite conservatively compared to most commercial speaker makers. Revel is a reputable speaker maker, but I don’t know how they rate the sensitivities of their speakers. There are no industry standards for measuring or rating loudspeaker sensitivities, so anything goes. Even though most people will directly compare speaker sensitivity ratings from different makers, you shouldn't do that unless you know for certain that the ratings are similarly determined. And yes, it is true that speaker makers are highly aware that exaggerated sensitivity ratings will sell more of their products. @D Murphy can answer those kind of questions better than I can.

I’m not sure what the minimum power requirements are for the BMR Towers. It's possible that your AVR's 100 wpc is enough. I’ve heard them driven by a DIY Hypex NCore class D amp that could produce 200 wpc. Those speakers can easily handle that much power without problems. In my opinion, they do very well with that much power. Again, ask Dennis Murphy what he recommends.

Or, going totally different - something like BMR bookshelves, sitting on two large subs?

BMR Monitors are the smaller sibling of the Towers. They sound quite similar, but not identical, especially in the bass. It is possible that sitting them on sub woofers could work well, but I’d be surprised if it was the best arrangement possible in your room. See below about sub woofer placement.

What would work best in a room like mine? The reason I'm asking - even though we have a large space, I'm just not sure multiple large subs will fit in with our plans for the house.

See this article, Crawling for Bass - Subwoofer Placement Tips. Read it even if you never actually go through the crawling-on-the-floor exercise. Its main point is that a good location for a sub woofer is quite often not the same location as the main speakers. That’s one of the advantages of external sub woofers.

Crawling for Bass - Subwoofer Placement Tips

Do the Subwoofer Crawl. It's the easiest way to find the proper placement location for your subwoofer to get the best performance and sound.

www.audioholics.com

For those who focused on my centre channel needs – could I build something like a BMR centre? Building my own speaker appeals to me, just not sure it will integrate well with the revels or Ohm Walsh, if those move to the main system.

I like that idea, its good.

There is a widely repeated mantra about Home Theater – that the front Left, Center, & Right speakers must match – same manufacturer and same drivers. What really matters is that the Center speaker reproduces dialog as clearly as possible, and that it disperses sound in the voice recognition frequencies at least as well as the Left & Right front speakers. In my experience, it becomes a noticeable problem if your Left & Right speakers do this better than your Center speaker. But if your Center speaker does this better than the other front speakers, it is not a problem. (I say this in the general sense, without being directly familiar with the acoustics of your room or the sound of the Ohm Walsh or Revel F36 speakers.)

 

[lovinthehd]

Also, if you do use an external sub woofer, in your AVR set up menu, set the BMR Towers to be Large, not Small. That sends full bass signals to the BMR Towers as well as the sub woofer.

FWIW none of my avrs do the double bass thing just by switching to large (i.e.turn off bass management), that would only use the sub for LFE content. On my Denons it's another setting to use called LFE+Main, think my Onkyo calls it Double Bass.

 

[snakeeyes]

Hmm. If it’s for home theater then possibly the Revel Performa3 C208 center (not 205) to add with the F36 since it avoids the MTM layout of the concerta2 and 205 centers.

Also at least one ported subwoofer if not 2. I feel like getting at least one sub will get you the most immediate impact. The center would be the next amount of impact if it’s a home theater.

Upgrading above the F36 is a complete do over but the BMR monitors or towers likely will be a great option if you are a big time music listener.