Help refining paradigm system!

[Jmck]

Hey, I have a paradigm system and need some help setting it up correctly.

I have 4 monitor 9's as fronts and surrounds. 2 subs, a paradigm 3200 and a paradigm 3400 (not sure more than that with the subs)

the amp is a denon 3311 because he said that would go great with it.

This is what my room looks like with all the blue being the speakers and where they are sitting with the sub to my right.

I think one thing I should do is put the surrounds on stands? a bit higher?

but im also not sure on my sub placement for a room of this size and shape.

Ive been trying to get everything setup, ive used audyssey but have reset my channel power for the subs because it put it on -12 assuming the subs were ****.

I have 2 sub filters to remove the big droning banging sounds. Ive been doing anything I can to also match the sub frequency's but im fairly lost with that. The upper sub frequency is as low as possible and the top one is just above half. The system sounds great, but I KNOW it can sound better.

I have a new sony 3D TV 55 inch connected with a ps3 and sound docks connected to it with everything running through the amp. I am about to redo Audysset because ive moved speakers and subs a bit and I know it needs to recalculate.

I also got told to change my LFE to -10DB from 0 but the settings arent showing up in the amp when I play a surround sound movie.

So any advice would be greatly appreciated

 

[Jmck]

Oh, and the two subs are sitting on top of each other. smaller sub on top of the bottom one. is that ok?

 

[AVRat]

How far apart are the L/R speaks? Hopefully you can set them at least 8' apart. What do you have the gains on the subs set to? Should probably be around the 9 o'clock position or less. Audyssey is setting them low because they're providing a lot of output. The XOs on the subs should be set to max or bypassed letting the receiver do its thing initially.

 

[Jmck]

The front L/R speakers are definitely not set 8ft apart. At most they would be 5 foot apart. So being further apart makes a better sound?

Gain is the channel level? because it was set to -12 but I have put it up to 2.5 to what I think is an even amount of base. the Centre is on about -9 and fronts are -8 and so are rears I think from audyssey

Well, I have one sub running the upper range and one running the lower range, so the bottom one has the XO set to lowest and the top one has it set just above half. Is that the wrong way to do it?

I have to sub filters in which were built by the place I got my speakers from and they basically reduce the base strength by 30% and clean it up so you dont get the vibrations that shake the house like crazy that you can hear from the other side of the street. One controls the upper frequency and the other one controls the lower. Interesting bit of cabling that did improve the sound.

 

[GranteedEV]

Ideally, I would have them 3 feet or more from any side or rear walls, and 8 to 12 feet apart from each other.

Next is a matter of understanding the baffle step compensation. tHe quickest way would be to, after the above setup, run audessey with two or three test tones.

Now check what kind of boosts and cuts audessey has applied from 60hz to 500hz or so.

For example, if it goes

60hz - +2db
100hz - 0db
250hz - +2db
500hz - +1db
1khz - 0db
2khz - 0db

Then that probably means your speakers have some boost arond 100hz, but are too far away from the wall for the design of the speaker. And if it goes

60hz - -2db
100hz - -4db
250hz - -2db
500hz - -1db
1khz - 0db
2khz - 0db

then it means your speakers are likely too close to the wall. Now i'm not saying your speakers necessary have that 100hz boost. I don't know the frequency response of those off the top ofmy head. But you get my point... focus on that region below 500hz or so.

Move your speakers back and forth until you can get that boost or cut in the bassy regions to as close to zero as you can. Optionally, just let audessey apply its boost/cut EQ but then audessey has to be ON otherwise the speakers will not sound right.

Try to keep your speakers 2-4 feet away from the rear wall ultimately. This will give you the best possible stage "depth".

For subs, stacking them might give you a bit more max output but I don't recommend it.

The biggest advantage of multi subs is if you can get them across from each other on opposite walls, and as away from corners as you can get. Unless your smaller sub is actually intended as a mid bass module of some sort, I recommend running both subs with the plate amp crossover at the highest possible setting or OFF if possible.

Let your receiver deal with cross-overs. Trying to cross over a sub with another sub, and yet both are being crossed via receiever to 3-way mains..I can only imagine the issues you would run into.

Audessey is setting it to -12 because sending "-30dbFS" or whatever voltage to the subs would make the subs too loud and noticible.

Think of it like this:

Your Speaker Left/Right with a test tone voltage give you 78db
Your Sub with the same test tone voltage might give you 90db, even though it might feel the same level you have to remember your ears are less sensitive to bass frequencies. Trust the mic that this is actually this much louder than your speakers.

What audessey tries to do is match them. So (although it might be a bit different) it might cut the total volume by 3.

So the "standard voltage" will give your main speakers 75db and your sub 87db.

Now that means your sub is 12db louder. That is not desirable if you want balance... so audesssy will cut your subs down by 12db at standard voltage. This will mean the standard voltage will give your main speakers 75db and your sub 75db..."matching" them. It will still send more voltage to either the speakers or the sub if the content calls for it.

Now movies are generally mixed with a louder LFE channel.. up to 10db louder at the loudest moments. So the max of your mains might be 105db but your sub will still be asked to do as much as 115db. So the bass will be prominent when it wants to be, even though the speakers and subs are set to the same level. Let the recording handle how loud the bass should be relative to the rest of the signal. Don't fall into a trap of trying to get the bass to show itself. The best bass is so subtle that it's pleasant and forceful but you can't even tell your subs are doing anything unless you put your hands on them.

As the above paragraph suggests, sometimes people set the LFE channel to -10db because the sheer force of that channel can be disruptive. In your settings, somewhere or other, you might find an option to set it to 0db but don't confuse that with the level trim.

Back to dual subs. Because they are NOT the same subwoofer, you have an issue of gain-matching. Normally I would not recommend trying to mix and match two subs.

Unfortunately, the only way for you to match the levels of the two different subs together is with an SPL meter of your own. You need to send a 75db test tone or pink noise to one sub in isolation at its final location as I suggested above, and play around with its gain dial until you get to a specific number on an SPL meter. Probably 75db. Next you need to do the same for the other sub in isolation, at its final location. ITs gain dial setting will likely differ to get to that same SPL. Once you've dealt with the two subs, you need to run a Y-Splitter from the LFE-out channel so both subs are getting the exact same signal. You may wish to do the "crawl test" for one or both subs to find optimal locations on one or both walls, prior to doing the above.

After all the above, with the Y-Splitter in place, unless your Denon has dual DISCRETE sub outputs, you will need to next look at the phase dial on one sub or both. Because they will not be co-located, they will likely not be in phase when they reach your seating position. With one person sitting at a given seating position, run test tones through both subs at the same time with your hand on the phase dial. When it sounds most clean and loud to the person at the sweet spot, you've found the right phase.

I recommend keeping the smaller, weaker sub closer to you to lessen the amount you're asking from it.

run the auto-setup and see what you get.

Now for surrounds. I recommend getting them at least a foot or two above head height.

 

[AVRat]

Yes, the farther apart the speakers, the better stereo separation and larger soundstage. The sub gain/volume on the subs themselves.

 

[Jmck]

To be honest that just blew my mind a little bit XD im going to have a good read and get back to you with a good reply when ive tried a few things

The one thing with the subs, I was told to run them at two different frequencies with one doing the upper range and the ot her oding the lower range.

I have to sub filters that were built for this purpose. (I have no idea how they work but they also cut the bass by 30% so I had to turn it up from -12)

And I did get told to turn the LFE to -10 while watching certain movies but I cant find those settings?

At the moment my left speaker is about 4 foot from the side wall and the rear wall is about 10 feet away, the right is about 7 or 8 foot away from the side wall and the same distance from the rear.

They are however half a foot from the wall behind them.

""""Now check what kind of boosts and cuts audessey has applied from 60hz to 500hz or so.

For example, if it goes

60hz - +2db
100hz - 0db
250hz - +2db
500hz - +1db
1khz - 0db
2khz - 0db

Then that probably means your speakers have some boost arond 100hz, but are too far away from the wall for the design of the speaker. And if it goes

60hz - -2db
100hz - -4db
250hz - -2db
500hz - -1db
1khz - 0db
2khz - 0db

then it means your speakers are likely too close to the wall. Now i'm not saying your speakers necessary have that 100hz boost. I don't know the frequency response of those off the top ofmy head. But you get my point... focus on that region below 500hz or so."""'

I dont understand what you mean by checking the boosts? is this the crossover for each speaker that is in the speaker setup of the amp?

because if it is the crossover is set to
Front 60
center 60
surround 60

I understand that audyssey matches the speakers and sub but it cant take into account the 30% lost due to the filters. Whether or not these filters are the best they did drastically improve the sound of the system.

And the denon has to seperate sub inputs on the amplifier.

I will get some stands from the surrounds because I heard they are a lot better above head height from a few people now.

Is that right that it is better to have matching surrounds to your fronts for the best sound during cinema viewing?