help please on audio from pc or media source

[lumi]

hi im a bit of a noob with audio but here goes

i wasnt sure how to put the title so sorry if too vague

Ive been reading loads of threads from lots of sites and like this site for its healthy scepticism. Read lots about biwiring etc and dacs. i dont biwire and only have my avr dac. Ok what i would like to know is the best way to get my music to my denon 3802

i have some nice speakers by keswick audio torrinos..from the mid/late 90s made by dean hartley who is now head tech at monitor audio and some diff ones for rest for my 5.1 set up anyways this is not so impt for now, it does fine for movies at present. my concern is for stereo music

im using a pc to play flac files from foobar with the wasapi.dll and an xfi pcei x1 extreme audio card (old audigy chipset though it plays stuff which is 44.1 at 44.1 the onboard soundcard supports 48 only.

I read this is best but does it make a real world diff? as im tight for space on the shuttle sn25p. I would like to know if im right and what is the best way to get the flac data to the avr. Im using optical toslink from the card. If i understand things im not using any pc/soundcard dac and pc electrical noise isnt an issue....am i correct? its just 1 n 0 out. but..

ive been reading about jitter, clocks and dacs etc etc. so i think i have a reasonable dac in the denon ok its a few years old now or maybe you disagree?

would i see any realworld improvement by going for

1. a newer/better sound card? xonar or audiophile

2. would using usb out to a dac then to denon be a better way?

3. would a dedicated good music media player be a better option

should i be bothered about jitter and clocks? i might get a sep amp in the future or newer avr, but for now i only have a denon 3802 so digital inputs are coax n optical only.

i was initially thinking on a xonar dx pcei x1 but i can use pci if i swap pcs around. but i got to thiking is it worth it for digital output. then i saw n read about dedicated music streamers that are about these days, then threads about usb to dacs and usb to usb/spdif converters etc.

if the card was eliminated it would free up space in the small shuttle sn25p old model where the card is right next to the graphics card so not ideal for cooling or i can swap hardware to a diff older shuttle all run win 7

which way would u guys go about it

hope this was all legible

many thanks

 

[Audioseduction]

I prefer not using optical toslink as it induces more jitter and provide poor play back quality for 2CH stereo audio play back. Would be better to use a outboard DAC and connect it to your PC via USB. Then connect the DAC to your Denon 3802.

For instance a Cambridge Audio DacMagic 100 would be nice for your setup and fairly affordable for arround $370.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Dear OP, please disregard this nonsense above.
You don't need new dac, you have perfectly fine dac in your Denon AVR

The way to use it is to connect your pc to your receiver using optical digital audio connection, which your sound card does have in fact.

Switch audio output to digital and enjoy the best quality sound.
If you still not liking it - it's time to invest in room treatments and new speakers

Stop worry about jitter and other nonsense - this is largely insignificant to Sound Quality.

Try running your denon in pure audio mode to see disable all sound processing

 

[lumi]

@boredsystemadmin this is in fact what i am doing right now

@ audioseduction yes i lookd at that in uk retail shop is about £200 sterling

im not convinced it will be worth it at present

if jitter/clocks etc is not something to be really worried about from the pc card then my speakers are good imo they were prob £900 -1250 speakers at time in mid 90s and sound good to me.

however if i swap out the pc to a smaller solution poss with no optical outs then dacmagic may be something to consider. But in the mean time im just thinking about what i can currently do with the pc if anything at all. It might be that at present its fine no need to get a better card or do anything.

poss future considerations are sep stereo amp and even smaller pc or media player.

thanks for your replies

 

[Beatmatcher247]

I found in my experience that TOSLINK was cutting off some of the bandwidth at the way bottom and way top of the signal of the source I was sending to it whether it was a Creative X-Fi Fatality sound card or the realtek on-motherboard card. There is a bandwidth issue with TOSLINK. At least in my experience.

I found great improvement by getting a newer video card that features onboard audio and HDMI output of both the video and audio over the same HDMI cable. I was able to get true multichannel to work this way.

Even after downloading high quality .flac files, I still can't get anything coming off of the PC to sound near as good as it does right off of an original recording disc on the Cambridge 650BD. If there is a better way I have not figured it out yet. It may be noise from my video card that isn't agreeing with me that's making it onto the HDMI cable. When they spin up really hard like when you are loading a game, you definitely get some noise. I imagine if you don't get such beast video cards, this would be less of an issue. It only rears its head at launch of demanding games.

.Flacs sound loads better to me than mp3s do, but yet no where close to original cd format on the disc player.

 

[lumi]

i read hdmi was worse for audio, but that sjust one articel and i liek to get both sides and better facts, before i come donw on one side or the other.

might be that worse but we cant hear it for our kinda of set ups with short cable

i cant post links yet but this was one

madronadigital.com/Library/DigitalAudioJitter.html

and there are some on the forums here i think discussing it. i havent fully looked into hdmi as i dont have hdmi on avr

my main concern though is stereo from pc, if i can improve it or not worth it.

by

1. new card

2. usb to usb dac (i dont have usb on avr)

3. good media player for stereo music

4. new avr or dedicated stereo amp with usb

5. dont bother the current card is no worse than an expensive one or usb dac for optical out and stop worrying about jitter n clocks

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I found in my experience that TOSLINK was cutting off some of the bandwidth at the way bottom and way top of the signal of the source I was sending to it whether it was a Creative X-Fi Fatality sound card or the realtek on-motherboard card. There is a bandwidth issue with TOSLINK. At least in my experience.



.Flacs sound loads better to me than mp3s do, but yet no where close to original cd format on the disc player.

Both of statements above make 0% sense.

Toslink a medium on which SPD/IF protocol is getting transmitted. it's lossless digital protocol - it does NOT magically cut frequencies.
It does indeed limited bandwidth - it's usually limited at 16 bit and 44/48Khz audio - which is at original CD audio or above.
S/PDIF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


FLAC files IS exactly same thing as original CD content

I suspect you ether have faulty drivers, using wrong software or applying filters/effects at some processing stage.

HDMI does support higher resolution audio up to 24bit/192Khz, but you wont find such audio on regular CDs


But - It's your money - If you wish to spend on overpriced external DACs - I highly recommend upgrading speaker cables - Kimber or AudioQuest are great, Power cables - because you can't be sure enough to have good power supply to your DAC. Also get cable raisers and stones - they magically uplift the music

[/Sarcasm]

 

[lumi]

thats what i thought as well boredsystemadmin

i think dacs are too dear and am not convinced by them at present.

only reason would be to allow usb from pc. But if it isnt worth it then i wont be going there

if any one else can offer some advice reguarding my questions that would be great

ta

 

[lumi]

having alook around i see that there are cheaper smaller dacs with usb inputs under £100 in uk. not as fancy as that dac magic.

this bring it nearer to a possable solution if needed

ie new sound card or cheaper little dac with usb.

i quite like the idea of the small dac which will allow me to free up space by removing sound card in the current pc its right next to graphics card hindering cooling in a old shuttle sn25p if u look up where the slots are youll understand why its not great, and also using hardware which may only have usb out for digital. ie smaller format pcs

is one way better then the other? will a cheaper little usb dac be fine adding versatility or is sticking to a sound card better for sq.

here is a cheap one i found at a store in the uk not looked around for other yet. put the www in i cant post links yet

superfi.co.uk/p-3635-cyp-aud150-usb-and-optical-digital-audio-converter.aspx

this would be taking digital from usb and outputting digital to the avr

thinking more on that wouldnt a simple usb to optical/coax converter be cheaper

many thanks

 

[lumi]

i get the skepticism on ext dacs etc and im not going there for the sake of getting one

more to the point this is for pc audio out, running foobar wasapi and flac files

so does anyone have an opinion or facts on which is better an internal card or usb of which i see there is adaptive and asynchronous?

if a soundncard which one?

or will any reasonable one for digital out be fine and dont worry about jitter stats clocks etc

if usb then i would have to look at a usb spdiff converter and some happen to have a dac in them

the cheaper ones seem to be £100 in uk and then ranging in ever increasing cost to ridiculously expensive for what imo they are, converters and dacs


thanks

 

[Beatmatcher247]

If you decide to go the soundcard route, make sure it does true audio pass through. I was unsuccessful in getting my Realtek HD Audio (onmotherboard) and my Creative X-fi Fatality to simply just pass the signal along to my preamp for decoding there. You would think there would be a simple option to do this, but this was not the case with either of these cards. Seek out this feature if you want to go this route.

If you go the DAC route, I'd be really interested to hear about your results as I'm still not happy with SQ over the HDMI on my video cards. Its fine for gaming and movies, but not for critical 2.1 channel music listening.

I'm not super knowledgeable about this stuff, I'm just trying to save you from some of the frustrations I experienced trying to get good SQ off the PC/HTPC. Still haven't found a way to get my .flacs to sound near as sweet as the cd does does off the analog section of my 650BD.

 

[lumi]

hi beat

thanks for your input about the sound card

i found a company in uk, not too far from me that has a big range of converters and dacs from the least expensive to never gonna get ones. They said i could come down n listen to them and they offer a take home to test service.

so i might take them up on that

im getting hold of an old rotel 965bx so i can compare to a cd player either using its dac or st8 digital out

 

[Grador]

If you go the DAC route, I'd be really interested to hear about your results as I'm still not happy with SQ over the HDMI on my video cards. Its fine for gaming and movies, but not for critical 2.1 channel music listening.

I'm not super knowledgeable about this stuff, I'm just trying to save you from some of the frustrations I experienced trying to get good SQ off the PC/HTPC. Still haven't found a way to get my .flacs to sound near as sweet as the cd does does off the analog section of my 650BD.

Two questions for you on this, if you've used digital interconnects from a CD player does that sound different than the HDMI? If the answer to that question is yes, or that you've never tried that, what are you using for an audio player?

 

[Beatmatcher247]

Lumi,

Did you ever figure something out on this?

 

[lumi]

not yet

i found some other forums that have more info on this niche

if all goes well tomorrow im off to see the company about the converters or dacs for pc audio to amp or avr. i shall test a few there and they will allow me to bring some home to test in my system so i can compare.

1. xfi (not true one) extreme audio pcie optical out into avr/dac using foobar waspi

2 usb to spdiff converter to avr/dac

3 usb to usb/dac analogue to avr

4 usb to usb/dac analogue to sep stereo amp


Im mainly into the stereo for this but ill ask about the gaming and film side audio passing correctly through them.

are u in the uk as they have a big range u can try out from just under 100 to 1000s of pounds which are out of my meager budget range

am i allowed to post a link?

 

[lumi]

Ok listened to a few and brought back 3 in my budget range to test in my system and a borrowed stereo amp

im writing this in the small hours so forgive me if it becomes non sensical ill rewrite tom if necessary

Remember im no expert audiophile

one product had usb to toslink spdiff converter ability as well as a dac

one had usb to rca spdif converter ability as well as a dac

The converter side of things didnt make much diff to the sound card out to avr optical. Might be a subtle one but not one i could pick out without really trying and i didnt spend much more time on that side of things.

Only advantage of a pure converter in my situation would be no need for sound card and ability to link small format or tiny pcs eg raspberry pi (if compatible) digitally which is good.

Some with better ears may hear a diff as ive read people reviewing differences with converters in other forums.

Now onto testing the dacs side now to a stereo amp and also analogue to the avr amp and yes all 3 dacs had differences i could hear, and imo def 2 sounded better than my old soundcard toslink to avr for music

connected to the stereo amp sounded best which was to be expected, the avr did a good job of it though.

1 was def not as good as other two, 2nd was good, i liked it. 3rd was just a bit better but was a lot more money.

i picked the one that sounded best to me and best performance per cost and was impressed.

So i can get rid of my sound card to free up the space right in front of the graphics in my old shuttle sn25p. You'll know why i wanted to remove the sound card if u know the layout of that pc.

Plus i can mess with my raspberry pi as well.

Regarding what i think u wanted to know about, was it passing dts and DD 5.1 and hd audio? i forgot to ask but will be speaking to the guy after weekend to return the demos etc. If it was me and it was for films and it didnt matter about removing the sound card like in my situation i would just use the sound card optical or rca digital interface to avr dac, but i have a media player for that role.

Ive not really payed attention to HD audio as my avr amp doesnt support it.

but if hd audio is for films like dts and DD then i presume the converter is what u would need if all the correct stuff was passed through the usb converter to digital to avr. i dont know if it will be any better than a sound card or using your graphics hdmi audio out.

i think these things are aimed to music ill try n rem to ask.

The sep little usb dac works for me as

1 i plan i get a sep stereo amp so i need to hook my pc up to it and also as i want to mess with my raspberry pi
2 i can remove the sound card.

the ones i heard in the shop where ones around £150

audioengine d1
sidewinder one cant rem model now
hrt streamer 2+ older one hexagaonal shape ( had a new one but it was alot dearer as exdemo was on offer)
musiland 03

now onto 350- 375 ones
kingrex ud384
wryed for sound dac think it was the £400 model but only using its dac so it would be the same as the wyred 4 sound micro dac which is £350

i got to bring home a musiland 03 a hrt streamer 2 + hex shaped older one and a kingrex ud384

the kingrex sounded the best to me closely followed by the hrt ii + then the musiland 03

to me musiland was slightly vieled in the mids n treb.

the hrt sounded brighter n wider more alive n i liked it

the kingrex had that bit more detail was nicer but for me not worth the extra cost though u could tell it was the best one out of the 3 imo.

if i did want to go up into that range the guy was going to send me the wyred 4 sound micro dac to test as the demo was due back on mon and he would mail it up to me.

but i dont think ill be going into that range. In the shop it sounded like it might have been similar or a bit better than the kingrex ud384. The guys opinion is that it is a bit better but i need to hear it in my system to be sure and as im not going up in price i wont be hearing it.

ill have to see if i can post a link for his site in the uk as customer services was great n u get to test them in your system which i thought was great.

ok soz if that was all over the place its quite early here and im off to bed

 

[joebob]

I would also like to understand why digital audio is such a convoluted topic. When you're talking about video everyone agrees that you just connect your blu ray player, cable box, whaterver to your tv and the picture is great. Cables don't really matter and, within reason, every manufacturer is going to product good video. 5.1 audio, through hdmi or spdif is also not a problem.

So why is it so difficult to do the same with 2 channel audio files. It's use a USB dac, no use toslink, no dgital audio is better. Why isn't there a best way to do this. What is bit perfect audio? How do you achieve it? Should that be the goal? Is hdmi a good way to pass computer audio? If not, why not, it's digital? It seems that the goal should be to feed the raw data to the receiver, assuming that the receiver has good dacs, but what's the best way to do that. But why are some dacs better than others? Shouldn't they all do the same thing. Again, with video it just works.

I'm hoping somebody can write, or direct me to a good primer on the subject. Seems like it's too much voodoo science and shouldn't be.

Thanks,


John

 

[bikemig]

One of the easier ways to get good sound from a computer is a squeezebox touch. It allows you to stream your music wirelessly from your server. It has a good quality dac so you can run analog out to your amp; it also has digital outputs if you want to rely on your av receiver's dacs. It is bit perfect and it does hi res files (though I'm not convinced you can hear anything ripped at higher than redbook resolution). It also does a great job with internet radio. It is a very fine product.

If you don't want to stream your music, I agree that inexpensive dacs are the way to go assuming that your amp/receiver lacks one and for whatever reason you wish to bypass the sound card in your computer and/or not upgrade it. The HRT music streamer II runs $150 in the US and works well. I'm using one right now attached to my laptop and an audioengine N-22 amp/P-4 speakers. The sound is pretty darn good. There are plenty of inexpensive dacs that can do the job.