Help picking strong fronts for folks

[ekkaiden]

I'm new to the site and am thankful I found it. You guys seem very knowledgeable as well as open to being helpful to us newbies.
My father just moved into a new place and I'm trying to get some audio set up for him. Got him a 7.1 Yamaha receiver about 5 years ago. It was around $600 retail so it should still be good. The new home has 4 Bose ceiling speakers that were already pre installed. Two are a little bit in front of the viewing couch and two are behind it. I'm looking into the front left and right speakers and was preferring floorstanding. They are not big fans of bookshelf speaker stands and also have an issue with room for a center (unless it was about 7 inches depth or less and was aesthetically pleasing with the set to the folks) Would like to spend around $200-$350ish per speaker. Because of space, I do not really see them getting a sub, sadly.. They are about 90% TV/movies and 10% music. Looking for a few recommendations. I was looking at the HTD level 2's and level 3's but the 3's might be a tad out of price point. Unfortunately parents are also driven by the cosmetic look so hoping for a rich looking dark brown or pleasing black (2nd choice) cabinet. Looking online, the dark wood cabinet drew me to the HTDs as well as their good sound reviews I read about. I also looked at the Emp tek RT55Ti's but concerned that wood will clash with all their other dark woods. Could work if would be the best blend to their audio needs. BB and Fry's close by but low selection. Saw the Klipsch R-28f at $359 and the Polk TSx440t at $263. Those seem like not favorites here. Polks cabinets look nice though, didn't sound amazing at Frys. Not sure what would be the best for low-end and highs with no sub or center. Maybe the speakers I mentioned are overkill and I'm overthinking it as my typical MO. Blahh

-What are some good recommendations for l/r's that would sound strong without a center or sub? or is some center solution a must
-Could two of the ceiling speakers be used as a center or bad idea?
-or just use all 4 ceiling speakers as the surrounds?
-can the receiver just be set to Dolby with no center connected and still push the highs where it should?

I appreciate any feedback. Would love to blow them away with "real" speakers

 

[ekkaiden]

Correction. I assume it is not important but for clarity purposes.. The receiver I got him a few years back is actually an Onkyo TX-SR804. Thanks again

 

[KEW]

After your comment about woodgrain, these probably would not fit the decor. However, if you think the lighter woodgrain would work, this gets a quick recommendation from me at $800/pr. These are a level up from the R-28f, but being discounted to make way for the RP-280f. They used to sell for $1200/pr. You might could do better for strict accuracy, but since you need real bass (no sub) and are looking at 90% HT, they get my vote. I just bought a pair of RF-82 ii's after hearing them at a friends house.

http://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-RF-82-Reference-Floorstanding-Loudspeaker/dp/B00TEA56QU/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1440373050&sr=8-9&keywords=klipsch+rf

Here is a write-up I did after hearing RF-62 ii's at a friends house (the 62ii's sold out quickly and I bought 82ii's. The 82ii have the same sound with a little deeper bass):

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/klipsch-rf62-ii.95251/#post-1088658

A couple of caveats:
1) Klipsch has, in the past, made speakers that were somewhat harsh. I experienced none of that with these horn tweeters. They sounded well balanced; however, they do have a horn sound (which is what you encounter every time you go to the theater). If your parents have a (somewhat justifiable) bias against Klipsch due to their past sins, they might not warm up to these.
2) Klipsch are undoubtedly forward speakers. I find this is exciting for HT and music - a sharp drum hit gets your attention! If your parents would want a more sedate sound, this is not the one for them.

 

[ekkaiden]

Thank you for your detailed response and recommendation. Nice article as well, it was a great read! The rf-82 ii looks like a great speaker that could also add some bass to the room. My few concerns would be what you mentioned in regards to the lighter wood. They are a large speaker that add a big presence and not sure if that color will blend. I'm going to bring them over a picture to get their opinion. In regards to your question of a more sedated sound, which is a great point to bring up, is something I will approach as well. They would definitely enjoy the vroom that is wanted sometimes but I wouldn't want to scare them while they're watching the morning news. LOL. Would these speakers do OK in daily normal TV viewing levels and then be able to punch it up if they need? Any input on the other questions involving the center/ceilings? I assume from your response, the speakers I mentioned wouldn't be the best fit. Any additional recommendations for comparison welcome. Thanks Kurt

 

[KEW]

The news is going to scare them no matter what speakers you have! That is what todays news has become.

I think they would do great for normal levels and definitely punch it up when needed. I am still trying to get a real handle on the nature of the horn tweeters. They are different. It is almost like they throw the sounds to your ears, as if you have a small speaker at proper volume at your ear. Almost like listening to headphones. This is what gives it those micro-dynamics I mentioned in my review. It makes it a good speaker to listen to at low levels and still hear clearly. My comment about sedated sound was regarding listening to music. If they have a streaming system built into a smart TV or BluRay, they pobably would like it if you showed them how to use Pandora. It is free, and they could have music they liked whenever they were just "about the house". But maybe they are not music people. I don't know how old your folks are, but Pandora seems to go pretty far back with their catalog.

I'll have to disconnect my center and listen to the 82's tomorrow. Will get back to you on that. Is there room mostly symmetric? will the TV be centered between the L & R speakers?

As far as the Bose ceiling speakers, Neither Bose nor ceiling speakers get much respect around here (I have no experience with either). However, surrounds really are not too critical. I would set up good fronts, get everything hooked up and then judge whether you want to mess with changing the surrounds. Most movies don't have that much content. Stuff like glass shattering around you and bullets whizzing by are the types of places where I get reminded that they are back there. It wouldn't surprise me if you are fine with them. I generally don't believe in putting too much into the surrounds, focus on the quality of your mains. If you find they sound bad, then you can worry about them.

How old are your parents? I am 56, but enjoy big band music from the previous generation. There is plenty of it in the catalog, however, some of the older stuff sucks for sound quality so I ended up getting rid of, say, Glen Miller Radio (old big band) and replacing it with Sammy Nestico Radio (new big band), and still occasionally have to "thumbs down" a tune because the recording is too poor (because it was recorded before the available equipment was good). In any case, I enjoy having music from Miles Davis to The Who to Steely Dan to Norah Jones to Citizen Cope on a random shuffle! Once they understand how it works, it will be easy for them to grow into and makes for a simple way to have customized "radio" including tunes they probably forgot existed!

 

[KEW]

I spent some time listening without the center. Makes me wonder why I bought one! (Not really, because of my room layout, the center between my L & R is about 3 feet to the right of the center of my TV. The center is centered to the TV and helps to pull the audio center closer to the video center for me).
The "phantom center" approach works very well with the horns. I played with toe-in and could get more or less of a stronger centered audio image, but with the speakers pointed straight (no toe-in) they worked well. With them both toed-in straight at me, I got a especially tight center imaging effect (more than I like and more than I can get with dome tweeters). If you play with toe-in, you should be able to vary the effect as much as you like.

 

[ekkaiden]

Too funny on the news comment. Dad is 79 but a young 79 and mom is 12 years below him. He had the right idea, haha. I've tried Pandora for him before but he will got easily discouraged. Maybe I will set some macros on a good remote to make it super easy for him to get to and try again. Good music taste man.
I have an ovation not too far away I'm going to pop in tomorrow and check those speakers out. Still need to go visit Pops and show him some pictures for his opinion of the color. Appreciate you taking the time to remove the center and check it out. They probably won't be in the sweet spot most of the time and I might be limited with the toe in but will play around with this. Sounds like the speakers can handle the highs and lows pretty well alone. You've been a great help, thank you!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[KEW]

Happy to help!
The 82ii go down to 33Hz.
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 33Hz-24KHz ± 3dB
Here are the specs:
http://www.klipsch.com/rf-82-ii-floorstanding-speaker/details

Also, you should know that even though you might buy the 82II's from a company with a good return policy, at 69 pounds each, these come via freight (not UPS or FedEx), and I suspect it would cost around $150/pr for return shipping!

The R-28f you started with may be pretty decent, but they are 12 pounds or almost 20% lighter. Still, if you can't use a sub and end up absolutely needing black, there are not too many options in this price range.

 

[ekkaiden]

Seeing pops tonight and will run some pics by him. After further looking at the empteks (RBH), they seem great but not very good in the base department if there is no sub. Sad, because they are a good size for his spot and look stunning!

I did get a hands on with the Klipsch rf-82ii's yesterday. They sounded really good and pushed some base but not sure if that horn sound would get old after continued listening. It does kind of throw the high's at you. My basic concerns are, it is a huge speaker with rear port. Going to measure the space again tonight but worried it would be pretty close to the wall and mess with the base port. Also not the sexiest looking speaker out there and would cost $856 after tax. A bit over budget but maybe doable.

I did see a sale today on the Polk RTi12 for $279 a speaker, today only. About the same price as the TSx440t. Wasn't a huge polk fan in the past but remember the cabinets looking good. Are these any good at that price point compared to others?

You guys have all been great with the help and suggestions. My head might be spinning a bit with all the options but greatly appreciated. Keep em coming

 

[ekkaiden]

Just realized I thanked "all of you guys" earlier but you were actually the only one who commented, thank you Kurt.
Was able to take some measurements tonight as well as a picture I'll post so you have a visual with what you've been helping on. Less space than I originally thought. 20 inches on one side and 11 inches on the other which could be leveled out a bit but the couch does not line straight up with the TV, it's to the right. From the wall to the end of the entertainment center is 20 inches. I am worried about the depth of the speakers too. With rear porting I assume I need to have 6 to 12 inches from the wall. Is this a true worry in rear ported speakers? Just think the 82's are going to be too big of a speaker for them. My mom looked a bit intimidated. The entertainment center has a middle brace bracket which causes the trouble for the center. At 7 1/2 inches depth it would be all the way to the edge. Let me know if you think there is a way to sneak a sub in that picture. I apologize if I wasted some of your time but not providing the available dimensions

 

[ekkaiden]

Oh and would spend a grand on a pair if needed

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Besides looks, I think upcoming Elac F5 would fit the bill
Don't be shy regarding EMPtek speakers - I have heard them and they do sound real nice.
Lack of deep bass is easily cured with sub(s)

 

[ekkaiden]

Besides looks, I think upcoming Elac F5 would fit the bill
Don't be shy regarding EMPtek speakers - I have heard them and they do sound real nice.
Lack of deep bass is easily cured with sub(s)

Those look good, I'm anxious to see the release and the reviews on them. Maybe I should just run with the emptek and keep searching for a small sub that can sit right next to them. I feel the more I search the more I keep adding to my looking list, delaying my decision. I keep trying local locations to get a feel for the speakers but they are just set up so poorly that doesn't seem to help

 

[ekkaiden]

This was a reply of mine at avs but Audioholics and its members has also provided some invaluable information. Thought I would post it here as well. With all the wonderful help from this site and it's members, I have a pretty good option list put together. Here they are so far. Let me know if you have any further inputs on adding to it or removing something from it. 85%movies/15%music No sub, no center, picky looks and limited room from the wall has made this hard. Decided against the dark/light woods and sticking to black, piano or gloss preferably. They want to keep the grills on as well which shocked me a bit because some of these have stunning woofers but you know... waf

SVS Prime Tower - Piano Black[/B] / Over the price point but maybe a sale or will bite the bullet... Read some good reviews and seems like good low-end extension, considering. Beautiful look, small footprint.

HTD Level 3's - Black / Audioholics own review mentioned that even sometimes they thought there was a small sub in the room when they were playing it. Not a wow factor in the black but good looking with a short, somewhat small footprint. Front ported, I believe

Chane A5rx-c - Black / Lot of good reviews. Small footprint to blend in versus standing out. Bit worried what base it can through around without a sub. Also out of stock till fall

Could you use without the square base plate?

Empteks/RBH R55ti - Gloss Black - Another one with a ton of great review and a lower price point. Very tall speaker which adds minor concern and rear porting

Verus Forte - Piano Black - Beautiful speaker with a small footprint but major concerns about the base. Also high price point for this list

Monitor Audio - Bronze line doesn't have gloss finish and the black oak seems less than desirable (wood color are beautiful but doesn't work here). Silver line looks great and gloss finish but way to expensive unless major sale
Kef q500's or 700's (if a good sale) but read alot of mixed reviews..
Klipsch 82ii's had a bit too large of a footprint and the no gloss. didn't forget about them tho

If you all are not too tired of my naive, probably repetitive questions

Please interject

 

[KEW]

Yeah, I'm with your mom, looking at that piece of wall, the Klipsch RF-82's would look totally out of place. And though I keep the grills off of my RF-82's, because the dual 8" woofers look cool, that would look wrong in that space.

Actually, I'm a little bit intimidated by the rounded corners of that cabinet and that whatever speaker you put to the left will physically encroach on the doorway (assuming you walk in front of the coffee table before turning into room to left of TV). I think it makes sense to select a more svelte speaker.

The obvious contradiction is you want to have solid bass from a non-imposing speaker. Is there a place behind the sofa that you could tuck a sub? I have been playing with using my rear speakers as fronts in stereo mode and if I cross at 60Hz, I cannot tell that the subs are behind me. The illusion that all sound is coming from the rear speakers is complete unless I put my head down by the sub!
If you can fit a sub behind sofa, it really opens up the options!

I finally heard the EMPtek R55ti tonight and they are very nice sounding and would work pretty well along that stretch of wall. Since subs are not cheap, I think they may be your best option.

As far as subs go, figure out what would fit and whether gloss vs flat black matters and we'll go from there with sub recommendations.

Another option:
At the risk of losing my man-card, I'll throw out this option:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/keft100blcos/kef-t100-5.1-on-wall-speaker-system-black-no-feet/1.html

These are flat wall mount speakers. You can mount the center above the TV.
I have never heard them, but do have a lot of respect for KEF. The two extra speakers can be used or kept as spares, but it is cheaper to buy as a set than to go individual. Sub can go on floor right of TV.
You'd no doubt be your mom's favorite son, but depending on your dad, you might earn a new nickname.

 

[ekkaiden]

[QUOTE="KEW, post: 1094800, .[/QUOTE]

no perfect speaker on my list you really like? And thought I was getting close and better Haha

Actually they had a small chair to the left that I moved for the picture. Some not so big speakers will fit their great and not encroach. I even considered moving the TV cabinet up 5 inches to more in line with the fireplace if we needed a little more room for rear porting. It would still only allow 12-16in depending on speaker depth.

I should've took a better picture of the room. Behind the couch is a walkway. If I was standing behind the couch facing the TV, I'd be in the walkway and behind me to the left would be the kitchen and behind me to the right would be the dining room. To the left would be a kind of open sunroom to the back porch. It's a really open environment and the couch is kind of sitting in the middle of the room. No way for a sub to sit and wiring concerns.
I asked them before about wall speakers and kind of held my hand up for an example one but they were turned off by it. These are nice pictures though so I will revisit but not likely.

Good to hear your thoughts on Emptek. They have been my front runner with their price point and slim design but when I told my mom the height, I noticed her fear in her eyes. It is a tall speaker but might just be the one for the job.
One step forward, two back lol. I'm sure in the end they're going to be blown away and I have had made this way more difficult than it probably needed to be.

 

[KEW]

Shame that there is not a hidden spot for sub. That would have been ideal.

From a performance standpoint, the EMPTek are the right height, as the tweeter should be close to ear level. Since they have an MTM design, the mid on top adds extra height. At 8.5" wide and with the curved walls, they are comparatively svelte. I don't think the height is near as important as the width for being imposing on the room. I think if she had them in the room, she would not be that upset.

The HTD 3 specs 30Hz-40kHz without telling you if it is +/- 3 db or +/- 10 dB. They have a decent reputation, so I am sure they sound pretty good, but for bass, I would want more info.

I would cross the Verus Forte off of the list. With 4.25" woofers, you won't get decent bass at all. they were clearly designed for use with a subwoofer.

If you can swing the SVS Prime towers, I think that is the best option. I have not heard them, I have only heard the Ultra Bookshelf speakers which were excellent speakers. The measurements from AH are better than the EMPteks and I'd to bet they sound very good.
http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/svs-prime-tower-and-center-loudspeaker-review

Moreover, the SVS has a 45 day return policy and they will pay for shipping both ways, so if you don't like them, it doesn't cost you a dime. Give them a call, you will be amazed at their customer service - you will get intelligent assistance and reassurance on the return policy terms as well as feel good about buying from them. You can also ask about any B-stock. Hopefully they can tell you specifically what blemish (if any) exists.

As for rear porting, one of the articles here on AH recommended no less than 1.5 times the diameter of the port so you are making that part harder than it should be - call it 6" and you are good.

PS I have no experience with Chane or Monitor Audio, so include that when considering my comments.

 

[3db]

I'm new to the site and am thankful I found it. You guys seem very knowledgeable as well as open to being helpful to us newbies.
My father just moved into a new place and I'm trying to get some audio set up for him. Got him a 7.1 Yamaha receiver about 5 years ago. It was around $600 retail so it should still be good. The new home has 4 Bose ceiling speakers that were already pre installed. Two are a little bit in front of the viewing couch and two are behind it. I'm looking into the front left and right speakers and was preferring floorstanding. They are not big fans of bookshelf speaker stands and also have an issue with room for a center (unless it was about 7 inches depth or less and was aesthetically pleasing with the set to the folks) Would like to spend around $200-$350ish per speaker. Because of space, I do not really see them getting a sub, sadly.. They are about 90% TV/movies and 10% music. Looking for a few recommendations. I was looking at the HTD level 2's and level 3's but the 3's might be a tad out of price point. Unfortunately parents are also driven by the cosmetic look so hoping for a rich looking dark brown or pleasing black (2nd choice) cabinet. Looking online, the dark wood cabinet drew me to the HTDs as well as their good sound reviews I read about. I also looked at the Emp tek RT55Ti's but concerned that wood will clash with all their other dark woods. Could work if would be the best blend to their audio needs. BB and Fry's close by but low selection. Saw the Klipsch R-28f at $359 and the Polk TSx440t at $263. Those seem like not favorites here. Polks cabinets look nice though, didn't sound amazing at Frys. Not sure what would be the best for low-end and highs with no sub or center. Maybe the speakers I mentioned are overkill and I'm overthinking it as my typical MO. Blahh

-What are some good recommendations for l/r's that would sound strong without a center or sub? or is some center solution a must
-Could two of the ceiling speakers be used as a center or bad idea?
-or just use all 4 ceiling speakers as the surrounds?
-can the receiver just be set to Dolby with no center connected and still push the highs where it should?

I appreciate any feedback. Would love to blow them away with "real" speakers

Are you looking at Ash black type of speakers? If so, PSB makes great products equally adept for HT and 2 channel music listening. Below are the Imagine XT ..

http://www.psbspeakers.com/content/140625144856-14-003_PSB-ImagineX_Specs_English_F.pdf

 

[ekkaiden]

Are you looking at Ash black type of speakers? If so, PSB makes great products equally adept for HT and 2 channel music listening. Below are the Imagine XT ..

http://www.psbspeakers.com/content/140625144856-14-003_PSB-ImagineX_Specs_English_F.pdf

Nice-looking speakers and some impressive stats. Thank you for the recommendation

 

[ekkaiden]

Shame that there is not a hidden spot for sub. That would have been ideal.

From a performance standpoint, the EMPTek are the right height, as the tweeter should be close to ear level. Since they have an MTM design, the mid on top adds extra height. At 8.5" wide and with the curved walls, they are comparatively svelte. I don't think the height is near as important as the width for being imposing on the room. I think if she had them in the room, she would not be that upset.

The HTD 3 specs 30Hz-40kHz without telling you if it is +/- 3 db or +/- 10 dB. They have a decent reputation, so I am sure they sound pretty good, but for bass, I would want more info.

I would cross the Verus Forte off of the list. With 4.25" woofers, you won't get decent bass at all. they were clearly designed for use with a subwoofer.

If you can swing the SVS Prime towers, I think that is the best option. I have not heard them, I have only heard the Ultra Bookshelf speakers which were excellent speakers. The measurements from AH are better than the EMPteks and I'd to bet they sound very good.
http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/svs-prime-tower-and-center-loudspeaker-review

Moreover, the SVS has a 45 day return policy and they will pay for shipping both ways, so if you don't like them, it doesn't cost you a dime. Give them a call, you will be amazed at their customer service - you will get intelligent assistance and reassurance on the return policy terms as well as feel good about buying from them. You can also ask about any B-stock. Hopefully they can tell you specifically what blemish (if any) exists.

As for rear porting, one of the articles here on AH recommended no less than 1.5 times the diameter of the port so you are making that part harder than it should be - call it 6" and you are good.

PS I have no experience with Chane or Monitor Audio, so include that when considering my comments.

Agreed, would love to sneak a sub in there but they might be fine without it. We can always get creative down the road if the need arises.
Glad to hear you come in on the rear porting thing. I was getting a lot of feedback from others mentioning minimal 12 inches but more recommended a couple feet! That sounds hard to do in a lot of set ups.
I do really like the look of the SVS's. I think they would stand out nicely in that space. Funny I got an email today that they're getting a new factory and have discounted there b stock even more, but the speakers were $20 higher than last week. $569 b vs $599 new. Even so looks like they sold out of them today anyways, b stock that is.
Think I'm going to visit them and show them the pictures of the top finalist. Then wait and see if there's any Labor Day sales this weekend and pull the trigger. To be honest I will be glad to be done and maybe start focusing on my own
Thanks for all your help and politeness. Hope to continue our conversations