Help needed with 2.1 system for music using current pm7200

[alphawave]

Hi - I appreciate this is the beginners forum - if it sounds like I know what I'm talking about below that is only becuase I learned all this stuff in the past few days by endless research. If it's wrong then ... well, you get the idea.

My current music setup is a Marantz PM7200 into B&W 602s3 speakers (2 of them). I've had these items for many years and they are, I gather, still very widely regarded. In any case, I love them.

I listen to bass heavy music (house music etc). Although I love the speakers, they roll-off and I gather I would have a much better experience if I buy a sub (to handle, say, <80Hz).

I haven't yet decided on what sub to buy becuase I've run into a problem: the amp (which is precious) has no bass management (in fact, the only integrated amp which I've found with proper bass management is the Outlaw RR2150 which doesn't run on 240v UK 50Hz supply).

So, unless anyone can help me out here, I think I'm stuck with either:

1. Buying an AVR and ditching the PM7200. If I do this, I do not want to settle for lesser sound quality than the PM7200. Can anyone suggest something (I don't want to spend one penny more than is necessary)?

2. Keeping the PM7200 and buying a sub which accepts (high level / speaker level) input and running speaker wires from System 2 on the amp (the 602s are currently connected to System 1) into the sub. This will mean (if my days of research are correct) that the 602s will still be running full range and I will need to do the cross-over at the sub. What kind of problems am I going to run into this way?

Cheers!

 

[ski2xblack]

Not many subs have any high pass filter on their speaker level pass through, and if they do it's typically a single cap providing a shallow roll off. I think you're better off using something with proper bass management. AVR is the most cost effective route.

 

[GIEGAR]

Hi Alpha. You don't need to ditch the Marantz UK | PM7200.

For an economical, simple solution, what I recommend you do is get one of the "slim line" 5 channel Marantz AVR's. The current model is the Marantz UK | NR1504, but older models will also be fine. In addition to a subwoofer preout jack, these have L & R main channel preout jacks (AKA 2.1 preouts). With the smaller Marantz AVR, you’re not paying for amplification you don’t need and the form/finish is a fairly good match for the PM7200.

Hook up the sources you want to utilise the sub for (I presume all) to the AVR and let it do the signal processing and (digital) bass management. The AVR’s L & R main preouts then feed your PM7200 for amplification and the new powered sub is fed directly by the AVR's sub preout. The AVR effectively becomes the processor/preamp and the PM7200 is effectively re-purposed as a power amp.

As well as bass management, you will also benefit from the AVR's very good Audyssey MultEQ auto setup and EQ routine and the associated Dynamic EQ. Audyssey will accurately measure and set up your speaker distances (delays) and levels, suggest crossover frequencies and determine EQ filters for each channel. Of course, you can “opt out” of Audyssey’s EQ and processing at various tiers or disable it altogether if you choose.

Good luck and let us know if you have any questions.

Edit: Do not do this! You can't connect preamp outputs (Marantz NR1504) to analog audio level inputs (Marantz PM7200). See post 42 for details.

 

[markw]

You don't need t spring for an AVR to enjoy a sub to it's fullest.

You can live quite happily without bass management. Virtually all powered subwoofers offer both level and crossover controls so you can successfully blend your sub with your current speakers.

Just adjust it so it kicks in where your current speakers fall off. Your mains will naturally fall off like they do now but the sub will do the heavy lifting for the deep bass.

It may take a but of time to find the perfect balance but it can be done. I've been doing this since the late 90's with my two channel systems. That's why the sub makers put those knobs on their subs.

 

[TLS Guy]

You don't need t spring for an AVR to enjoy a sub to it's fullest.

You can live quite happily without bass management. Virtually all powered subwoofers offer both level and crossover controls so you can successfully blend your sub with your current speakers.

Just adjust it so it kicks in where your current speakers fall off. Your mains will naturally fall off like they do now but the sub will do the heavy lifting for the deep bass.

It may take a but of time to find the perfect balance but it can be done. I've been doing this since the late 90's with my two channel systems. That's why the sub makers put those knobs on their subs.

He has an integrated amp with no preouts. So he will have to use a sub with speaker level inputs.

 

[markw]

So? The crossover and level controls also work on the speaker level outputs. They work quit well.

Unless he simply wants to spend money on a new receiver, which is also fine, he would be well advised to buy the sub first and try it on what he has before springing for a new receiver.

 

[alphawave]

Thanks for all your replies guys, there are some constructive suggestions here. I have no desire to buy anything I don't need so I will be happy to find a way to work with the PM7200 and the sub. I now know what kind of sub I need to look for

There is one thing bugging me though. I asked Marantz a couple of days ago about connecting a sub and they advised as follows:


The PM7200 only has fixed level outputs CD-R/MD and Tape Outs (which can be used for things other than what they are titled for).

To be able to use an active subwoofer you need a variable output that changes level along with the master volume of the amplifier. This ultimately changes the level going to the subwoofer accordingly with any volume change.

Unfortunately, there is no way possible to use this amplifier with a subwoofer I am afraid.


So ... was this duff advice from Marantz or am I missing something?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for all your replies guys, there are some constructive suggestions here. I have no desire to buy anything I don't need so I will be happy to find a way to work with the PM7200 and the sub. I now know what kind of sub I need to look for

There is one thing bugging me though. I asked Marantz a couple of days ago about connecting a sub and they advised as follows:


The PM7200 only has fixed level outputs CD-R/MD and Tape Outs (which can be used for things other than what they are titled for).

To be able to use an active subwoofer you need a variable output that changes level along with the master volume of the amplifier. This ultimately changes the level going to the subwoofer accordingly with any volume change.

Unfortunately, there is no way possible to use this amplifier with a subwoofer I am afraid.


So ... was this duff advice from Marantz or am I missing something?

Not totally duff. They probably overlooked the option of using a sub with speaker level inputs. This is not very common and an option I overlooked once. It is not the ideal option, but the only one you have.

 

[markw]

They are referring to "line level" inputs which is the nom for AVR receivers which is where their main focus lies. hey would love to sell you a new AVR.

You can use any subwoofer that has speaker level inputs. There's a myriad of very good ones out there. Hsu research is but one manufacturer that offers excellent subwoofer that can be driven via speaker level inputs. Here's but one example that I wouldn't be ashamed to own. There are plenty more as well.

 

[ski2xblack]

That advice assumes the sub only has line level inputs. You can choose a sub with speaker level inputs. The availability of subs with speaker level inputs seems to be dwindling, and you'll have to check and see which ones of those also have any sort of filters on speaker level pass through; the ones I'm familiar with were a single cap resulting in a 6db/oct rolloff fixed at 80 hz, which is not as useful as active bass management IMO. I would think with smaller, ported mains that you would benefit from both steeper slope and higher frequency setting, easily done with active bass management.

 

[TLS Guy]

They are referring to "line level" inputs which is the nom for AVR receivers which is where their main focus lies. hey would love to sell you a new AVR.

You can use any subwoofer that has speaker level inputs. There's a myriad of very good ones out there. Hsu research is but one manufacturer that offers excellent subwoofer that can be driven via speaker level inputs. Here's but one example that I wouldn't be ashamed to own. There are plenty more as well.

Don't forget the OP is from the UK. Options for subs are much more limited. His sub needs to be 240 volts.

I have checked REL a major UK sub manufacturer and they do not offer speaker level inputs.

I checked Tannoy and had a quick look on Watt Hi-Fi and could not find one. I did find an 8" sub from AV link for 99 GBP that looks like junk.

There is this speaker to line level converter from Radio world, sold on Amazon UK. It is intended for car use. I can not find out if the RC network would be robust enough for the speaker voltages of his amp.

We have been down this road before. Subs are not common in the UK and frowned on as most live in apartments,terraced and semidetached houses.

If you annoy your neighbor your rig is gone. So the market for subs is for puny ones, we would not look twice at.

 

[markw]

I wouldn't worry too much about that high pass filter for the mains.

Good speakers tend to politely ignore what they cannot reproduce and not "fart out". I've been running a pair of maggie 1.6's and Sound Dynamics RTS-3's with active subs for years now without any sort of high pass filter and never had a problem with them.

 

[markw]

Don't forget the OP is from the UK. Options for subs are much more limited. His sub needs to be 240 volts.

I have checked REL a major UK sub manufacturer and they do not offer speaker level inputs.

I checked Tannoy and had a quick look on Watt Hi-Fi and could not find one. I did find an 8" sub from AV link for 99 GBP that looks like junk.

There is this speaker to line level converter from Radio world, sold on Amazon UK. It is intended for car use. I can not find out if the RC network would be robust enough for the speaker voltages of his amp.

We have been down this road before. Subs are not common in the UK and frowned on as most live in apartments,terraced and semidetached houses.

If you annoy your neighbor your rig is gone. So the market for subs is for puny ones, we would not look twice at.

fortunately for OP, Hsu does ship to England.

They also make smaller ones than the one I linked to as an example. Even this little guy offers speaker level inputs.

 

[alphawave]

OK, thanks both. My B&W speakers are stated to roll off at 33 Hz (-10db) with a gradual drop after 100 Hz according to this [I can't post links yet but google "B&W 602s3 roll off" and you get the link for soundandvision stats at the top]. Is this good or bad in terms of ease in manually trying to get a good cross-over?

By the way, what sub you would recommend? Budget is around £300 and I would like it to get as close as damn it to 20Hz.

 

[TLS Guy]

fortunately for OP, Hsu does ship to England.

They also make smaller ones than the one I linked to as an example. Even this little guy offers speaker level inputs.

HSU does not state they ship to England, but one forum does. However the unit will need to be 240 volt 50 Hz.

The other issue is legality. The UK electrical codes are far stricter then the US. The unit would have to pass UK codes or be potentially confiscated at HMC.

I can't argue with these codes as electrical house fires are much less common in the UK than here.

I really doubt having an HSU shipped from here to the UK is a wise option.

If you are going to use AC powered geared in the UK, it needs to go though an importer. I'm pretty sure HSU does not have a UK agent.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK, thanks both. My B&W speakers are stated to roll off at 33 Hz (-10db) with a gradual drop after 100 Hz according to this [I can't post links yet but google "B&W 602s3 roll off" and you get the link for soundandvision stats at the top]. Is this good or bad in terms of ease in manually trying to get a good cross-over?

By the way, what sub you would recommend? Budget is around £300 and I would like it to get as close as damn it to 20Hz.

300 GBP will not get you close to 20 Hz. You have VAT to contend with and other factors that drive up the price.

840 GBP gets you a small Dynaudio Sub. A decent Tannoy sub that does what you want is 2770 GBP.

I think to get a decent sub you are going to have to use a speaker to line level converter.

The market over there is totally different to here and most members of US forums have no idea of the chasm, which is widest for subs.

 

[markw]

HSU does not state they ship to England, but one forum does. However the unit will need to be 240 volt 50 Hz.

The other issue is legality. The UK electrical codes are far stricter then the US. The unit would have to pass UK codes or be potentially confiscated at HMC.

I can't argue with these codes as electrical house fires are much less common in the UK than here.

I really doubt having an HSU shipped from here to the UK is a wise option.

If you are going to use AC powered geared in the UK, it needs to go though an importer. I'm pretty sure HSU does not have a UK agent.

For what i's worth, before I posed that info I called Hsu and asked if they ship to England. Obviously, they do. I didn't ask about the voltage issue but, since they a pros in this field and have a phone # for international orders, I assumed they know what they are doing.

But, with his budget it may be moot point.

 

[TLS Guy]

For what i's worth, before I posed that info I called Hsu and asked if they ship to England. Obviously, they do.

But, with his budget it may be moot point.

I think you needed to ask a few follow up questions. In addition to cost and shipping there will be duty and VAT, the latter at 20%.

 

[markw]

I think you needed to ask a few follow up questions. In addition to cost and shipping there will be duty and VAT, the latter at 20%.

I think you do. I've overcome all the "problems" except cost, which wasn't an issue until OPs last post or so.

So, I'm done.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think you do. I've overcome all the "problems" except cost, which wasn't an issue until OPs last post or so.

So, I'm done.

I did not mean follow up questions to the OP, but HSU. It turns out, that HSU only ship to countries where they have a distributor/agent. They do not have one in the UK.

That makes sense. Shipping electronics across jurisdictions to customers is fraught with trouble. There was an article in the Telegraph a few months ago about all the gear confiscated by people and unlicensed distributors doing this. This was not just electronics, but things like chain saws.