[HELP NEEDED] Upgrade dual 12" subs to dual 15" subs... worth while??? --- Arendal, Rythmik Starke

[enthusiast_newb]

I recently got upgrade-itis, and I’ve homed in on upgrading my subwoofers.
Couple constraints:
- I'm married to my BDI cabinet… my choice cannot be taller or deeper than my cabinet 21”(H)x22”(D), I think that would look silly, and piano gloss wont match.
- I’m biased toward sealed, and want to stick w/sealed [hope to benefit from room gain]

What I’m considering [based on dimensions, constraints, and performance data I have found]: Starke SW15 or Rythmik E15/E15HP.


The data I can find suggests the Starke has ~4-6db output over the Arendals, from 25hz-100hz [anechoically].
That said, the Starke seems to have more distortion below 25hz [at the price disparity, I suppose that’s to be expected, I’m prob running into distortion anyway].

Unfortunately, I can’t find meaningful data on the Rythmik E15’s, I’ve attempted to extrapolate from the data off the 12’s and 18’s, but I don’t want to make a decision off extrapolated data, when the price is 3x that of the Starke’s.

I’ve seen/ read several reviews, which speak highly of both SW15 and Rythmik [in general].
Starke SW15 is currently $1000 [for 2], and Rythmik E15 is $2800 [for 2].
I expect both will have marginally better CEA2010 performance, over my [very good] Arendal 1961 1s…

Given the floor plan, equipment, and basic [current] overall integrated frequency response, and scope… here is my question(s):
Dual 12”s vs Dual 15”s…
Q1] Can I really expect to improve[increase] my overall bass response at a level that’s clearly perceivable, w/either upgrade?
Q2] Anyone have success integrating 2 12”s w/ 2 15”s?
Q3] Is this all really worth it?
OR
Should I just forget about this, and enjoy my… really quite awesome, current system. Saving upgrades for when I have a dedicated space,
and have committed to shelling out money, without being SO concerned w/penny pinching.


If I do pick up a pair of either… I plan to attempt to optimize the system to enable use of all 4 – I have a few placement arrangements in mind, to test in order to keep the aesthetic nice, and benefit from 4 subs… we shall see how that goes [ARC + miniDSP].
If that goes real poorly, I’m ok with a straight swap for now… and I will look to sell the Arendals… IF I can truly expect a meaningful, perceivable performance improvement.




My Configuration [mixed use/ open floor plan]:

My Current Freq. Response [w/small house curve]:

Datas for subwoofers of interest [w/current subs as ref]:

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So first off. What are your current subs?(sorry if I missed that). What do you feel is missing?
IMO, performance comes first, so looking weird, may or may not be something to overcome. People usually adapt quickly to new equipment that’s visually different.
Also, all subwoofers benefit from room gain. Where sealed have the “potential” to benefit more is from the shallower roll off of 12db per octave vs 24 of a ported sub. When you consider in most cases it takes about 4 sealed subs to equal a comparable ported one at 20hz it doesn’t add up very fast. IMO, ported wins every time, except when space is concerned, so if you want truly deep extension, it will take very large ported subs, or a great deal of sealed ones.
As far as upgrading from 12’s to 15’s, yes, there’s great potential there, but it depends on what you currently have, and will be stepping up to. It’s possible your love could be lateral. Especially if you’re it pushing your current ones very hard.

Edit: I now see current subs.

And yes, you could definitely improve the response.

 

[enthusiast_newb]

Hi, William.
Thanks for your time, and reply.
Yes, I currently have 2 Arendal 1961 1s's.

Im having haystack syndrome, and analysis paralysis...
It seems like everything above the Arendals performance is basically splitting hairs, until you get to like JTR level stuff...

Any take on: Arendal 1961 1s vs Starke SW15 vs Rythmik E15???

I sandbag'n a little, here is how I generally have my house curve:

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well I will have to look over their numbers to refresh my brain cell, but I believe the subs in question( arendal starke and Rythmik)are going to be more similar than different. The 15’s will definitely have more midbass output but how much will depend on each sub, and same with extension. Likely won’t be night and day though.
In the meantime. Have you looked at this?(i will review again later)https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/arendal-1961-1s-1v
I’ll try to look a bit it deeper and try to add something valuable.
My immediate thought is to consider ported for much more impact, but it seems like that might not be an option for you.
Also @shady, who reviews the subwoofers here may have something to add.

 

[enthusiast_newb]

@William Lemmerhirt ...thank you very much sir - I truly appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me!

Oh man, James [@shadyJ] and Gene [@gene] are both celebrities over here.
I've seen [and read] more of their reviews than I can count. These guys are an incredible resource to the community at large, and have played a tremendous role in my home theater component selections over many many years - Thank you both for all you do!

I don't think there's anyone else's advice I would value more than theirs.
Any shot one [or both] of you, would be able to take a moment to review this post, and provide your honest opinion @shadyJ or @gene ???
That would be incredible, and wholeheartedly appreciated [I know you're both quite busy].

Basically, what this all boils down to is:
2x12" vs 2x15" sealed subs: Is it reasonable to expect a performance improvement that's truly perceivable [when placed correctly, calibrated correctly, and integrated well]?

Moving from 2 Arendal 1961 1s, to 2 Starke SW15's or Rythmik E15's... is the ROI there?
OR
Moving from 2 Arendal 1961 1s to Arendal 1961 1s + 2 Starke SW15's [or 2 Arendal 1961 1s + Rythmik E15's], what's the probability that I can integrate the 2 different sets of subs together, to get a meaningful and perceivable performance improvement [w/ARC and miniDSP]?

I'm afraid... I might be at the pinnacle of performance I can obtain in this space, without spending MUCH MUCH more.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

@William Lemmerhirt ...thank you very much sir - I truly appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me!

Oh man, James [@shadyJ] and Gene [@gene] are both celebrities over here.
I've seen [and read] more of their reviews than I can count. These guys are an incredible resource to the community at large, and have played a tremendous role in my home theater component selections over many many years - Thank you both for all you do!

I don't think there's anyone else's advice I would value more than theirs.
Any shot one [or both] of you, would be able to take a moment to review this post, and provide your honest opinion @shadyJ or @gene ???
That would be incredible, and wholeheartedly appreciated [I know you're both quite busy].

Basically, what this all boils down to is:
2x12" vs 2x15" sealed subs: Is it reasonable to expect a performance improvement that's truly perceivable [when placed correctly, calibrated correctly, and integrated well]?

Moving from 2 Arendal 1961 1s, to 2 Starke SW15's or Rythmik E15's... is the ROI there?
OR
Moving from 2 Arendal 1961 1s to Arendal 1961 1s + 2 Starke SW15's [or 2 Arendal 1961 1s + Rythmik E15's], what's the probability that I can integrate the 2 different sets of subs together, to get a meaningful and perceivable performance improvement [w/ARC and miniDSP]?

I'm afraid... I might be at the pinnacle of performance I can obtain in this space, without spending MUCH MUCH more.

Only have a second but, there a two places imo that you could see benefits. If you listen at or near reference level(MV-0), the larger subs would increase output capability, and extension. If you don’t listen very loud, you might have all the performance you’d need, with exception of extension. Again, you can definitely achieve deeper extension. But it will take a pair of nice ported subs, or 8 sealed ones! You can also get a minidsp to flatten out the peaks in your response too. That’s always helpful.
So imo, you’re not at the pinnacle that you could achieve. But it will cost a bunch if you have to use sealed. But even for a small investment of 799ea, the rsl 12s would blow you away! They are a little on the big side though… I hope I’m not sounding insensitive to your questions. I just have a hard time talking about sealed subwoofers! Sorry.
And yes. We love Gene and shady here. Even if they’re just sitting around eating bon bons!!!

 

[lovinthehd]

What is a BDI cabinet and do you put subs in them?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

What is a BDI cabinet and do you put subs in them?

Entertainment center I think. Not inside, but probably next to. I’m sensing that symmetry and synergy with the decor is part of the goal here.

 

[Mr._Clark]

@William Lemmerhirt ...thank you very much sir - I truly appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me!

Oh man, James [@shadyJ] and Gene [@gene] are both celebrities over here.
I've seen [and read] more of their reviews than I can count. These guys are an incredible resource to the community at large, and have played a tremendous role in my home theater component selections over many many years - Thank you both for all you do!

I don't think there's anyone else's advice I would value more than theirs.
Any shot one [or both] of you, would be able to take a moment to review this post, and provide your honest opinion @shadyJ or @gene ???
That would be incredible, and wholeheartedly appreciated [I know you're both quite busy].

Basically, what this all boils down to is:
2x12" vs 2x15" sealed subs: Is it reasonable to expect a performance improvement that's truly perceivable [when placed correctly, calibrated correctly, and integrated well]?

Moving from 2 Arendal 1961 1s, to 2 Starke SW15's or Rythmik E15's... is the ROI there?
OR
Moving from 2 Arendal 1961 1s to Arendal 1961 1s + 2 Starke SW15's [or 2 Arendal 1961 1s + Rythmik E15's], what's the probability that I can integrate the 2 different sets of subs together, to get a meaningful and perceivable performance improvement [w/ARC and miniDSP]?

I'm afraid... I might be at the pinnacle of performance I can obtain in this space, without spending MUCH MUCH more.

Take the following with a grain of salt because it's not based on a deep dive into the numbers or personal experience with any of the subs you're considering.

I have a pair of Hsu Research ULS-15 mks (sealed) subs in one of my systems. I picked these over ported subs because I had severe space constraints. All things considered, these have been decent subs and I'm happy with them.

If you do get 15" sealed subs for the fronts, it seems to me you'd want to move your existing 12" subs to the rear. I've never tried that type of a setup, but my best guess is that it shouldn't be too difficult to make it work.

Having said that, if you're chasing the bass dragon, it's tough to beat big ported subs. I suspect that the various upgrades you're considering will provide an improvement, but leave you wanting more.

If shady chimes in and says I'm full of cr*p, listen to him and ignore my comments.

 

[snakeeyes]

I have not seen anyone online complaining about the Rythmik E15 or the HSU ULS-15. I think those are both good choices.

 

[enthusiast_newb]

What is a BDI cabinet and do you put subs in them?

Hi, as William noted: The BDI cabinet is equipment furniture. Overpriced, but I fell in love with the one I have.
Its got an acoustically transparent front, so you can leave it closed, and still control your equipment.
I ended up swapped the legs [to lower it a little], and modified the insides to accommodate my equipment.
You might say: For the price it better be perfect.
However, for me - even w/cost considered, what Im left with - I am very very pleased with.

I dont have any real close up of it handy... hopefully youre able to zoom in on the attachment [sorry].
IMO, its just... really nice looking, simple, and super functional

 

[enthusiast_newb]

Take the following with a grain of salt because it's not based on a deep dive into the numbers or personal experience with any of the subs you're considering.

I have a pair of Hsu Research ULS-15 mks (sealed) subs in one of my systems. I picked these over ported subs because I had severe space constraints. All things considered, these have been decent subs and I'm happy with them.

If you do get 15" sealed subs for the fronts, it seems to me you'd want to move your existing 12" subs to the rear. I've never tried that type of a setup, but my best guess is that it shouldn't be too difficult to make it work.

Having said that, if you're chasing the bass dragon, it's tough to beat big ported subs. I suspect that the various upgrades you're considering will provide an improvement, but leave you wanting more.

If shady chimes in and says I'm full of cr*p, listen to him and ignore my comments.

Thank you so much for your input, well appreciated!
These HSU 15's look incredibly intriguing... seemingly nice fit/finish/size and some really impressive data on performance. They reviewed very well here in James L's analysis.
I really like these!... I may actually go w/them. All things considered, it seems like a great value proposition [intersection of cost and performance, with a nice aesthetic].

Thank you for bringing my attention closer to them.

 

[enthusiast_newb]

Only have a second but, there a two places imo that you could see benefits. If you listen at or near reference level(MV-0), the larger subs would increase output capability, and extension. If you don’t listen very loud, you might have all the performance you’d need, with exception of extension. Again, you can definitely achieve deeper extension. But it will take a pair of nice ported subs, or 8 sealed ones! You can also get a minidsp to flatten out the peaks in your response too. That’s always helpful.
So imo, you’re not at the pinnacle that you could achieve. But it will cost a bunch if you have to use sealed. But even for a small investment of 799ea, the rsl 12s would blow you away! They are a little on the big side though… I hope I’m not sounding insensitive to your questions. I just have a hard time talking about sealed subwoofers! Sorry.
And yes. We love Gene and shady here. Even if they’re just sitting around eating bon bons!!!

I generally dont listen that loud.
Maybe... -24.5db [as per the AVM70] is about as loud as I take it for any full listening session.
Yea those RSL 12's look really impressive. I do like their value proposition a lot TBH.
My only concern is size/aesthetic. But, I do have my eye on them. Will have to revisit if theres a way to make them work in my room, in a way I would be happy with.
HAHA, I get it... ported subs have some true output benefits!

 

[enthusiast_newb]

I have not seen anyone online complaining about the Rythmik E15 or the HSU ULS-15. I think those are both good choices.

Youre right.. Im really splitting hairs here.
I have a tendency to be a little over-analytical, when it comes to this stuff.
I like to spend some time, to understand the best value proposition that fits the look Im trying to achieve.

That HSU sub... [now] has my attention in a big way!

 

[enthusiast_newb]

Regarding the Rythmik E15/E15HP, I wonder if anyone has seen, can find, or can point me to... either:
- CEA2010 data
- Calibration data [real in room frequency response from Audyssey or Dirac or ARC]

Ive spent an unreasonable amount of time, digging through forums and such, and CANT FIND ANYTHING (-_-)

 

[lovinthehd]

Hi, as William noted: The BDI cabinet is equipment furniture. Overpriced, but I fell in love with the one I have.
Its got an acoustically transparent front, so you can leave it closed, and still control your equipment.
I ended up swapped the legs [to lower it a little], and modified the insides to accommodate my equipment.
You might say: For the price it better be perfect.
However, for me - even w/cost considered, what Im left with - I am very very pleased with.

I dont have any real close up of it handy... hopefully youre able to zoom in on the attachment [sorry].
IMO, its just... really nice looking, simple, and super functional

I just didn't know what it was or whether you were putting them in the cabinet.....thanks for the clarification. Why is one sub in the corner and the other not?

 

[MrBoat]

The aesthetic concerns are going to hold you back more than the size/type of subs at this point. That is a difficult layout, and knowing that would haunt me as the root of the problem regardless of what I installed in there.

 

[Eppie]

Hi, as William noted: The BDI cabinet is equipment furniture. Overpriced, but I fell in love with the one I have.
Its got an acoustically transparent front, so you can leave it closed, and still control your equipment.
I ended up swapped the legs [to lower it a little], and modified the insides to accommodate my equipment.
You might say: For the price it better be perfect.
However, for me - even w/cost considered, what Im left with - I am very very pleased with.

I dont have any real close up of it handy... hopefully youre able to zoom in on the attachment [sorry].
IMO, its just... really nice looking, simple, and super functional

Love the look of the side surrounds. Do the wires run inside the columns that support the speakers? Super clean look.

 

[enthusiast_newb]

I figured I should circle back, to bring some updates [and closure]...

I'm kinda glad, I was a bit... skeptical/ unsure about the upgrade, this position led me to be a bit more conservative during this latest bout of upgrade-itis. So rather than "take my money" I put in some work.

At the end of the day, I landed on the HSU ULS-15 mk2 [thanks for reassuring this option @Mr._Clark and @snakeeyes].

The HSU's seemed the best aesthetic match to my existing setup (Arendal), as they would be near each other, this was kind of important to me, the datas and anecdotal evidence also backed em up.

The HSU has a great finish (painted rather than wrapped). The tone/shade/sheen is nearly a perfect match, with respect to my existing equipment.
Further, I'm a big fan of the fact the grill is magnetic - rather than peg mounted. I find it more appealing, and again - it matches the Arendal's really well.

After some leg work, I was able to find them for sale 2nd hand, not too far from me, and a decent enough discount [w/respect to new]. I was worried about them being abused or 'bad' somehow [potentially... you never know how someone treated them, when buying 2nd hand]...
Even contacted HSU, and they assured me they would service them, if needed.

So, I took a drive, and bought them 2nd hand [found them on a forum marketplace].
The seller was a real cool guy, and very much a fellow enthusiast, with a legit setup, who knows his stuff.
He had just recently upgraded to a pair of ported 18"s [a legit story, as he demo'd the HSUs as well as his upgrades].

Spent the weekend integrating the new pair of HSU's, with my existing 5.2.4 system [via miniDSP, REW and Anthem], as well as cleaning up the install.
I ended up putting the Arendal 1961 1s' under the side tables I made a while back to accommodate my surround side speakers. They just happened to fit perfectly.

This was certainly an upgrade.
Anyone wondering: "Will 15's really be noticeably better"? "is it worth it?"
'Worth' it is up to you, but... The 15"s absolutely have a real and noticeable depth, weight and authority w/respect to 12's. Its just a different level.

I've been listening to the system with just the HSU's, and with all 4.
The HSU's are outstanding. I'm very happy with my choice.

I'm pretty happy with my install, everything is clean, and at the end of the day there's no more floor space consumed, despite running 4 subs now [things dont look any more ridiculous, but sure sounds it].
The Arendal's are now effectively near field subs [I have some real tactile response, its wild], and I was able to get both pairs flat from 15-100db [via miniDSP and REW], and phase/time aligned via ARC.

This round of upgrade-itis, has concluded - and I am really very happy with the outcome!



Thanks for "listening", and for those that provided feedback: Thank You!

 

[enthusiast_newb]

I have not seen anyone online complaining about the Rythmik E15 or the HSU ULS-15. I think those are both good choices.

good call! hahaha