Help me with my GreatRoom?! Please!

[billthebutcher]

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first post. I've been reading a fair amount on this forum and others, but have not been able to come up with a solution for my specific situation.

I'm not a newbie to hifi, but I'm certainly not an audiophile to the extent that many around here are...I guess I'd say that I definitely know the difference between Bose and B&W for example, but I simply don't understand speakers that cost as much as my car.

All that being said, the main room in my house is a great room (meaning living room, dining room, and kitchen all combined into one expansive area with cathedral ceilings). I do not have or want a television (and consequently a theater setup) in the room. What I do want is a very good stereo setup exclusively for music listening--probably three hours a day.

I recently purchased the following equip (which is ALL still returnable): Integra DTM.5.9 stereo receiver, Integra CDC-3.4 CD changer, B&W M1 satellites for my front and a Velodyne DEQ-10R sub.

I landed on the B&W's because they sounded great in the store (better to my ears than bookshelf speakers costing twice as much) and I NEED something small/inconspicuous looking and I'm not able to wall mount or use stands (ie I need something that can sit directly on a bookshelf--more specifically the large mantle above our fireplace, which is the centerpiece of the room). Obviously, towers are out--I know a good set of towers would solve my problem.

So...now that I've got the system in place, I like it but I'm not in love with it. When I'm standing 10 feet in front of the speakers, they sound beautiful--quite impressive for the price point, really. When I'm at the back of the room (in the kitchen area) however, I'm left wanting. I find it hard to put into words, but I guess that when I'm in the back of the room, it seems there is a lack of mid range. I end up cranking the system to a point where I have to start adjusting my sub dependent on the track to which I'm listening. And then, when I get physically closer to the speakers it is all way too loud.

I do not believe that the Integra receiver or Velodyne sub is in need of upgrade or replacement (although if you disagree, please speak up). I think what I need is more front speaker.

I have, what I believe is a tough room and difficult (possibly unrealistic) requirements/budget/expectations.

So...now to the ultimate question finally...is there a bookshelf speaker out there that can:
1. sit directly on a shelf
2. fill a VERY large room "better" than my M1's--giving me more mid range at distance
3. costs $500 or less per speaker (I'm willing to enter the used market to stay under my budget if necessary)

Also, is there such thing as a bookshelf speaker that would eliminate the need for a sub in a room as large as mine? I think not...but again, I'm certainly no expert. If there was, my budget for the fronts would increase. I'd put my total budget for speakers at $1500.

Anyway, any advice would be GREATLY appreciated--I thank you guys in advance

 

[jostenmeat]

Pictures might help (you need 5 posts under your belt first to do so). Shelf mounting is unideal, but it's possible you can help out by decoupling them (try googling Auralex Mopad).

This kind of small "lifestyle" speaker wasn't meant to fill a large room, and it's not surprising that the mids leave you wanting, as that speaker's mid driver is only 4".

Now, hear me out before you cry "blasphemy", but I would consider the following:

A different pair of bookshelves that simply are more capable (yet there's no way they will please you from any spot in that room on their own)

and in addition, a pair of subwoofers. If you can have each sub somewhat/rather close to each speaker (say directly below each), they become a tower speaker in combination, so to speak.

The closer the subs are to respective monitor, the higher you can raise the xover so that the subs can help out even more.

Look towards sealed subwoofers, as they are smaller. A few I think of include Rhythmik, the entry Epik sub, SVS, I'm sure there's many others.

 

[billthebutcher]

thanks for the reply!

Yes, I'm dealing with quite a few non-ideal issues here. One of those is that I want to center the speakers around a large woodburning fireplace. On one side of that fireplace is a large glass door and on the other side there is room for components (and then there's a large piano next to that). Obviously I cannot put a speaker in front of a door...which means the speakers either go on the hearth...which for numerous reasons I do not want to do, or they go on the mantle. I know that is not ideal but it is unfortunately the situation I am faced with. For the reasons above, the dual subwoofer idea would not work.

I actually use those isolation pads under the monitors I use for my dig piano. It never occured to me to put them up on the mantle...but that's a great idea.

So, the question is: if I'm looking for a small bookshelf speaker that costs $500 or less (per speaker) that I need to fill a big room in the high and mid ranges, where do I go? Can I get something new that might fit the bill or should I go to eBay? Any suggestions on a bookshelf that might be particularly adept at filling a big room would be appreciated.

 

[AVRat]

What's the volume, cu. ft., dimensions of your space? How deep is your mantle?

 

[djreef]

You need to dedicate your system to another room (spare bedroom). You're fighting laws that you simply cannot overcome with such a philosophy. You've placed way too many limitations on yourself. Unless you want to build a speaker system from scratch, but I'm thinking that's going to be way more than you're willing to do. I'm sorry, but you're going to have a real hard time making this system sound right.

DJ

 

[Hwypirt]

How about adding some good in ceiling speakers in another part of the room either in addition too the B+Ws or as zone 2 speakers? Just a thought.
Here one:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000U7NGCW/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

 

[billthebutcher]

Thanks for the responses guys...

Yes, I am WELL aware that given my constraints there is no real good solution--but I cannot change the circumstances of the room. I just need to do the best that I can given the afore mentioned conditions.

I don't want this system for another room--I've got two other setups in other areas of my home that I'm very happy with.

Unfortunately, the ceiling speakers would not work because the room has cathedral ceilings.

In term of room dimensions/volume, just understand that it is big--frankly, too big for whatever speakers I'm going to buy. The mantle is built such that the footprint of the speaker must be EITHER less than 11" deep OR less than 7" wide. I can go over one of those dimensions, but not over both. The speaker will sit on the corner of the mantle, which wraps around the chimney.

The bottom line is that given my budget and the extensive reading I've done to this point, I've narrowed my choices to:

Totem Rainmaker
NHT Classic Three
B&W CM1

I'm leaning toward the NHT at this point because my guess is that it will fill the room best.

Any thoughts on a decision between those three speakers? I've considered the Monitor Audio GS10 as well, but they're a bit out of my price range.

 

[sawzalot]

Given the limitations you encounter with the fireplace and glass door can you make a different wall the front stage , without pics it's hard to grasp the room layout.

 

[jostenmeat]

Pics, Pics, Pics. It's hard to keep rereading your posts to find details, of which some are still fuzzy to me, so I have this sinking feeling that I could be wasting my time anyways.

The glass door on the left, is the LEFT WALL, or the left side of the FRONT wall?

If it's the left wall, are you against wall mounting speakers on this front wall, for better stereo spread/width/imaging? Just curious.

The best wall mountable (keyholed) speakers I've heard are the Ascend Acoustics 170SE. With the recent sale, if still going on, you could buy two pairs, and still have money left over.

The bottom line is that given my budget and the extensive reading I've done to this point, I've narrowed my choices to:

Totem Rainmaker
NHT Classic Three
B&W CM1

I'm leaning toward the NHT at this point because my guess is that it will fill the room best.

IMO, these are all bad choices due to sensitivity. I just looked them up. In order respectively, I believe they are (in units of dB/2.83V/m): 83, 86.5, and 84. Or in other words, freaking low, very low, and extremely low.

 

[billthebutcher]

okay, I'll post just to get up to five and then post some pix...

was watching Christmas Vacation last night...still hilarious after 20 years.

 

[billthebutcher]

Still, I don't think it is quite a Christmas Classic--but it's close. The ultimate Christmas comedy classic to me is A Christmas Story...love it!

 

[billthebutcher]

okay...

Hopefully the pix will give you a better idea of the situation...

Here's the wall w/ the fireplace. The B&W M1's are still in place atop the mantle, components and piano on the right, door on the left. Notice the seating area in front of the fireplace

A closer shot of the fireplace/mantle:

When facing the fireplace, the wall on the right side (notice piano, windows)

A shot of the left wall (notice cabinet, windows)

A shot standing in front of the fireplace looking toward back of room (kitchen)

 

[jostenmeat]

Hey where's the sub?

Yes, you need bigger speakers!

Try that first. Get higher sensitivity speakers to make it easier to help fill the room.

IF you don't mind the looks, you could wall mount above the glass doors, say, a couple of feet in from the sidewalls, but I doubt you'll like that. The mounts that Ascend sells are fully adjustable for tilt and toe in. They aren't very sexy looking, at least when close-up, but at that distance, they will simply look black.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

My old Paradigm Studio 40's did a very decent job in my ~8,000 cubic ft room. I think they would fit on the hearth and they are front ported so you may be able to get away with it.

You still really need a sub but they are not bad without one.

Since they are last year's model, you can likely find a good deal on a used pair.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1263147305&/Paradigm-Studio-40-version-4-n

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

My 2c:
I think Dipoles mounted all walls (each above glass doors in front) as well as dipoles on side walls - above windows.
Add Some fancy surround sound processor/equalizer and you should get decent results...
I think you could airbrush them to match your wall paint...
and yes - you still need sub or two to fill this space, but luckily these can be tucked away (even in not ideal places)

and second option : in wall speakers

 

[billthebutcher]

Frankly, there's no way my wife would be okay with me putting speakers above the door/windows. She'd be fine with a bose radio on the cabinet next to the piano. Trying to get at least decent sound is my deal and I cannot butcher the appearance of the room.

Plus, visibility of speakerwire is a big issue. For many reasons I won't bother going into, behind wall and/or under floor is not an option.

Again...this is why I've become resigned to the mantle speaker...the question is which is the right one.

I'd love to put those Paradigms up there but unfortunately they're too big for the mantle and I'm trying to avoid the hearth. Again...I'm not allowed to "ruin" the aesthetic of the fireplace. I looked at the Studio 10's for on top of the mantle but even they would hang over the edge a bit.

And sorry...forgot to photograph the sub. It is a Velodyne DEQ-10R and it is in the corner in back of the piano. It sounds better there than next to the fireplace.

 

[jostenmeat]

Frankly, there's no way my wife would be okay with me putting speakers above the door/windows. She'd be fine with a bose radio on the cabinet next to the piano. Trying to get at least decent sound is my deal and I cannot butcher the appearance of the room.

Plus, visibility of speakerwire is a big issue. For many reasons I won't bother going into, behind wall and/or under floor is not an option.

Again...this is why I've become resigned to the mantle speaker...the question is which is the right one.

I'd love to put those Paradigms up there but unfortunately they're too big for the mantle and I'm trying to avoid the hearth. Again...I'm not allowed to "ruin" the aesthetic of the fireplace. I looked at the Studio 10's for on top of the mantle but even they would hang over the edge a bit.

And sorry...forgot to photograph the sub. It is a Velodyne DEQ-10R and it is in the corner in back of the piano. It sounds better there than next to the fireplace.

Then you better list the maximum dimensions, including height, width, and depth.

 

[billthebutcher]

from previous post:

"The mantle is built such that the footprint of the speaker must be EITHER less than 11" deep OR less than 7" wide. I can go over either of those dimensions, but not both. The speaker will sit on the corner of the mantle, which wraps around the chimney."

the height is not an issue

 

[sawzalot]

How about something like this , Magnepan MMG the ultimate transparent soundstage for the cost they look really stylish and from what I understand they sound pretty darn good too and they look like they will fit right up there,price is pretty nice too here's the the link http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG The best part you can try them for 60 days if you don't like them send em back for a full refund...

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Well, Bill... some really tough choices you are faced...
Others have said before it will be hard to ideal solution to fill this huge room with sound without ruining the aesthetics, but I think it is impossible in your constrains...

I understand on top of mantle is your only option, but
My other idea could be a bit radical - instead of trying to invisible speakers, try to find ones your wife could like Probably not an easy task, but its worth trying... I'm saying look at some nice looking (aka expensive) speakers, but the extra cost might be worth to get at least pair of good bookshelf's on stands...

something like : http://www.redrosemusic.com/rosebud.shtml
or much cheaper option:
http://www.emptek.com/e5bi.php