Help me understand how DSP's work on a Yamaha RX-V781 AVR and stereo speakers

[Vinterbird]

Hi everyone!

I'm really new to the entire world of AVR's and bigger speakers, so far I've only owned a small pair of bookshelf active speakers and last month took the plunge into something bigger and better.

The result was a set of floorstanding Elac Uni-Fi speakers and a Yamaha RX-V781 AVR, but I've ended up spending more time reading the owners manual, searching on google and being worried about the sound rather then actually enjoying them.

My setup is only floorstanding speakers. No center channel, no subwoofer and the outlook to get either is not crazy due to budget and physical space in the living room.

My issue is that everything I can find in the owners manual and online seems to assume that the absolute minimum is a 5.1 setup situation, which makes it difficult to make sure I am doing it all right.

When listening to audio CD's on the setup, everything is stunning. There's life, energy and power in the audio experience and I am truly happy listening to CD's on them. But when it comes to movie and video games I am in much more disappointed with the setup, and I feel like I am doing something wrong on my end, since nothing has the same "omphf" as when listening to music.

I've run the YPAO calibration on the AVR, but I am at a loss on what to do in terms of the myriad of DSP choices the AVR gives me and what to do in order to get a decent sounding stereo experience.

Does anyone have any experience with the Yamaha AVR's and how to properly set them up in a stereo context? What DSP should I choose? What should I do and not do?

If anyone has the time to help someone that's very new to all of this and can't navigate this stuff really well.

 

[yepimonfire]

Hi everyone!

I'm really new to the entire world of AVR's and bigger speakers, so far I've only owned a small pair of bookshelf active speakers and last month took the plunge into something bigger and better.

The result was a set of floorstanding Elac Uni-Fi speakers and a Yamaha RX-V781 AVR, but I've ended up spending more time reading the owners manual, searching on google and being worried about the sound rather then actually enjoying them.

My setup is only floorstanding speakers. No center channel, no subwoofer and the outlook to get either is not crazy due to budget and physical space in the living room.

My issue is that everything I can find in the owners manual and online seems to assume that the absolute minimum is a 5.1 setup situation, which makes it difficult to make sure I am doing it all right.

When listening to audio CD's on the setup, everything is stunning. There's life, energy and power in the audio experience and I am truly happy listening to CD's on them. But when it comes to movie and video games I am in much more disappointed with the setup, and I feel like I am doing something wrong on my end, since nothing has the same "omphf" as when listening to music.

I've run the YPAO calibration on the AVR, but I am at a loss on what to do in terms of the myriad of DSP choices the AVR gives me and what to do in order to get a decent sounding stereo experience.

Does anyone have any experience with the Yamaha AVR's and how to properly set them up in a stereo context? What DSP should I choose? What should I do and not do?

If anyone has the time to help someone that's very new to all of this and can't navigate this stuff really well.

Lacking oomph how? In the bass? Are the speakers set to large with sub disabled? What is the frequency response of the speakers?

Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk

 

[TheWarrior]

Hi!

Try flipping through the the movie sound modes button on the remote as well as pure direct button. Make sure you are using a mode intended for 2 channel only!

Another thing is how your floor standers are positioned. This requires adequate distance from wall behind speaker, distance between speakers, and toe in angle towards listener. You should be able to hear the same sounds and sense of immersion at all seats. You may also have to adjust sound levels and delay individually if it's really difficult.

Finally on some movies, you may need to select Stereo on the DVD's menu audio options.

 

[yepimonfire]

I wouldn't select a stereo track. It usually drops the LFE. Assuming speakers are set up correctly, and are full range (response to a minimum of 35hz) there's no reason to do so. I used to run a pair of Polk monitor 70s full range with the lfe routed directly to the front l/r and it handled it like a champ.

Most AVRs have some sort of fake surround mode, you might like it, you might not. For the most part though, you shouldn't need a DSP to get good sound. Just select the regular multichannel track (Dolby truehd/digital DTS/HD ma etc) in the sound mode selection. Make sure the front L/R are 30° from center axis (generally as far apart as the distance to the mlp) and properly angled towards the listening position. Unfortunately, you can only get proper imaging by sitting in the sweet spot between both speakers. Adding a center channel to the mix should solve this.

Hi!

Try flipping through the the movie sound modes button on the remote as well as pure direct button. Make sure you are using a mode intended for 2 channel only!

Another thing is how your floor standers are positioned. This requires adequate distance from wall behind speaker, distance between speakers, and toe in angle towards listener. You should be able to hear the same sounds and sense of immersion at all seats. You may also have to adjust sound levels and delay individually if it's really difficult.

Finally on some movies, you may need to select Stereo on the DVD's menu audio options.

Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk

 

[everettT]

What is your source for movies? Which Gaming system?

 

[Vinterbird]

Lacking oomph how? In the bass? Are the speakers set to large with sub disabled? What is the frequency response of the speakers?

Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk

Hi!

Lacking omph:
Bass is definitely a thing, it's a bit hard to describe since I don't know the terms and English is not my native language, but when listening to music CD's I feel like "Okay, this is what the speakers are actually capable of" with a ton of fidelity and I can hear parts of songs I didn't know was there and so on.

With movies it's more like "That's it?", and compared to music I feel like something is missing or I am being cheated somehow. Which makes me think it's something to do with the way everything is setup at the moment.

Frequency response:
Does that mean Ohm? The speakers are what Elac calls "4 Ohm speakers", but I was told by the retailer of the AVR to leave that set to 8 Ohm.

Speakers are set to Large and the sub seems to be disabled:

Hi!

Try flipping through the the movie sound modes button on the remote as well as pure direct button. Make sure you are using a mode intended for 2 channel only!

Another thing is how your floor standers are positioned. This requires adequate distance from wall behind speaker, distance between speakers, and toe in angle towards listener. You should be able to hear the same sounds and sense of immersion at all seats. You may also have to adjust sound levels and delay individually if it's really difficult.

Finally on some movies, you may need to select Stereo on the DVD's menu audio options.

Hi.

Selecting a 2 channel mode is also where I am a bit confused. I don't know whether to select the one actually labelled "2Ch Stereo", because when I do it says "Music: Stereo" on the screen, so I am worried I am loosing out on something there.

There are also a ton of other options and I don't know what to select in order to get a proper stereo experience:

Selecting "Stereo" in moives is a bit of a challenge, as 90% of everything I watch in terms of movies is streamed via Netflix and it just spits out whatever it can from what I know.

I wouldn't select a stereo track. It usually drops the LFE. Assuming speakers are set up correctly, and are full range (response to a minimum of 35hz) there's no reason to do so. I used to run a pair of Polk monitor 70s full range with the lfe routed directly to the front l/r and it handled it like a champ.

Most AVRs have some sort of fake surround mode, you might like it, you might not. For the most part though, you shouldn't need a DSP to get good sound. Just select the regular multichannel track (Dolby truehd/digital DTS/HD ma etc) in the sound mode selection. Make sure the front L/R are 30° from center axis (generally as far apart as the distance to the mlp) and properly angled towards the listening position. Unfortunately, you can only get proper imaging by sitting in the sweet spot between both speakers. Adding a center channel to the mix should solve this.

So, I might need some help here. What is "LFE" and what does "Full Range" mean in terms of audio (I've only ever seen the term in regards to color spectrums on TV's). Above is a image of what I have available as options, and I am at a loss in regards to what I should select in order to just get downmixed stereo output.

What is your source for movies? Which Gaming system?

Movies:
Chromecast
Xbox One playing some random concerts and blurays I have available

Gaming systems:
Xbox One, Playstation 4, Nintendo Switch and a Steam Link.

 

[everettT]

In your speaker size make sure it's large. I'd use standard for Netflix and I'd set the ps4 to output lpcm.

 

[TheWarrior]

Hi!

Lacking omph:
Bass is definitely a thing, it's a bit hard to describe since I don't know the terms and English is not my native language, but when listening to music CD's I feel like "Okay, this is what the speakers are actually capable of" with a ton of fidelity and I can hear parts of songs I didn't know was there and so on.

With movies it's more like "That's it?", and compared to music I feel like something is missing or I am being cheated somehow. Which makes me think it's something to do with the way everything is setup at the moment.

Frequency response:
Does that mean Ohm? The speakers are what Elac calls "4 Ohm speakers", but I was told by the retailer of the AVR to leave that set to 8 Ohm.

Speakers are set to Large and the sub seems to be disabled:

Hi.

Selecting a 2 channel mode is also where I am a bit confused. I don't know whether to select the one actually labelled "2Ch Stereo", because when I do it says "Music: Stereo" on the screen, so I am worried I am loosing out on something there.

There are also a ton of other options and I don't know what to select in order to get a proper stereo experience:

Selecting "Stereo" in moives is a bit of a challenge, as 90% of everything I watch in terms of movies is streamed via Netflix and it just spits out whatever it can from what I know.




So, I might need some help here. What is "LFE" and what does "Full Range" mean in terms of audio (I've only ever seen the term in regards to color spectrums on TV's). Above is a image of what I have available as options, and I am at a loss in regards to what I should select in order to just get downmixed stereo output.




Movies:
Chromecast
Xbox One playing some random concerts and blurays I have available

Gaming systems:
Xbox One, Playstation 4, Nintendo Switch and a Steam Link.

Use 2 ch stereo and where ever the tone controls are, you can adjust the bass that way. With no subwoofer, you cannot make use of LFE or bass management - beyond tone controls. So you must keep the speakers left at Large so they receive a full range signal.

 

[Vinterbird]

Use 2 ch stereo and where ever the tone controls are, you can adjust the bass that way. With no subwoofer, you cannot make use of LFE or bass management - beyond tone controls. So you must keep the speakers left at Large so they receive a full range signal.

I will try to fool around with that, thank you.

Should I just stay away from all the other DSP modes? I tried the "Standard" one for a few minutes, and it seemed like it sounded "fuller" or so to say, it felt like it pushed more audio out into the room rather then "2ch Stereo" did.

Is it normal for AVR's to downmix, when they know what is plugged into them? After running the calibration stuff, it should now know that there's only two speakers so it should downmix or does it just default to 5.1 outputs?


Bonus question:
What would I do / select if I added a center channel and a subwoofer in the future?

 

[speakerman39]

I will try to fool around with that, thank you.

Should I just stay away from all the other DSP modes? I tried the "Standard" one for a few minutes, and it seemed like it sounded "fuller" or so to say, it felt like it pushed more audio out into the room rather then "2ch Stereo" did.

Is it normal for AVR's to downmix, when they know what is plugged into them? After running the calibration stuff, it should now know that there's only two speakers so it should downmix or does it just default to 5.1 outputs?


Bonus question:
What would I do / select if I added a center channel and a subwoofer in the future?

If you add a center and sub you will need to re-run YPAO. Sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Keep at it as you will get there eventually. BTW, which Elacs do you have?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't worry about "correctness" of a sound mode. Simply use the one that sounds best to you for what you're listening to at the time. Your avr should downmix but you may wish to simply provide a 2ch mix to begin with, again, the subjective preference is your own, there's really no right or wrong.

If you did add a sub (or center) simply re-run YPAO, make sure the speakers are set to small afterward, and suggest you start with a crossover of 80hz (in the case of a sub, so as to employ bass management). LFE is the .1 channel content when it exists. You should have audio menu choice on Netflix of 2.0 audio (if it isn't already).

 

[Vinterbird]

Don't worry about "correctness" of a sound mode. Simply use the one that sounds best to you for what you're listening to at the time. Your avr should downmix but you may wish to simply provide a 2ch mix to begin with, again, the subjective preference is your own, there's really no right or wrong.

If you did add a sub (or center) simply re-run YPAO, make sure the speakers are set to small afterward, and suggest you start with a crossover of 80hz (in the case of a sub, so as to employ bass management). LFE is the .1 channel content when it exists. You should have audio menu choice on Netflix of 2.0 audio (if it isn't already).

I think too many years of obsessing over picture calibration has made me focused on "correct" audio and video experience.

So in general, if I can downmix at the source device (gaming system, chromecast and so on) that's a preference rather then letting the AVR do the downmixing?


I don't know if you can help on this, but the AVR has a ton of different extra settings (YPAO Volume, Adaptive DRC and a bunch else), are these extra settings like "Motionflow" on TV's and stuff that should just be disabled as soon a possible?

If you add a center and sub you will need to re-run YPAO. Sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Keep at it as you will get there eventually. BTW, which Elacs do you have?

Cheers,

Phil

I might sound really stupid now, but in a 3.1 world what do I select in terms of DSP then? It doesn't seem like there is any modes for that. But will the AVR know what is connected and downmix / distrubute sound to the correct channels?

The Elacs are a set of Uni-Fi UF5 Floorstanding models. My first step into big speakers (I've been using active monitors for the past decade, so this world of AVR's and traditional speakers is very new to me)

 

[everettT]

Guess my suggestions go by the wayside .. As loving said it's up to your ears, but your source setup is important. Your avr will down mix to 2.0 so I'll stand by standard on Netflix, because of proprietary games on ps4 send lpcm and the avr will down mix to 2 channel. Trail and error helps. I've got a two channel setup in my office and have no issues with the settings I've suggested.

 

[Vinterbird]

Guess my suggestions go by the wayside .. As loving said it's up to your ears, but your source setup is important. Your avr will down mix to 2.0 so I'll stand by standard on Netflix, because of proprietary games on ps4 send lpcm and the avr will down mix to 2 channel. Trail and error helps. I've got a two channel setup in my office and have no issues with the settings I've suggested.

Sorry, got sidetracked with all the other comments.

I've set the Playstation to LPCM and the Xbox to Uncompressed Stereo, so hopefully the AVR will be able to work its magic there. Will see what Stereo options Netflix and other streaming services has, and see how it flows alongside the different DSP's.

It's just really nice to know that the AVR will downmix so I am not missing any channels at the moment (I think).


(and in general, a big thanks to everyone in this thread. The amount of help and nice attitude has been a very positive experience and very different from other similiar forums I've been looking at)

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Not this has been covered but I'll add that the sound "modes" like hall and concert, and acoustic etc, are just to create a faux environment. My guess is adaptive DRC(dynamic range compensation/compression)is like dynamic volume in audyssey. It's kinda like a loudness normalization. Originally intended to address super loud commercials compared to more subtly mixed tv sound tracks, it also effective for people who have to worry about others in the house, or who ride the volume control for their own ears. IMO, yes, disable that. The avr should know what's connected and downmix as you asked. I believe "straight" mode is yamahas 2.1 playback mode. My garage Yamaha allows me to select stereo but it's older. I also agree source setup is critical and should be where you start and work your way forward.

 

[Vinterbird]

Not this has been covered but I'll add that the sound "modes" like hall and concert, and acoustic etc, are just to create a faux environment. My guess is adaptive DRC(dynamic range compensation/compression)is like dynamic volume in audyssey. It's kinda like a loudness normalization. Originally intended to address super loud commercials compared to more subtly mixed tv sound tracks, it also effective for people who have to worry about others in the house, or who ride the volume control for their own ears. IMO, yes, disable that. The avr should know what's connected and downmix as you asked. I believe "straight" mode is yamahas 2.1 playback mode. My garage Yamaha allows me to select stereo but it's older. I also agree source setup is critical and should be where you start and work your way forward.

Thanks for the input. So I should set the sources to stereo, rather the relying on the AVR to do the work?


Also, should I fiddle with setting the AVR to be in 4 Ohm mode considering the speakers are 4 Ohm? I was told not to worry about that by the salesman, but I want to be sure I don't end up doing any damage to the equipment.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thanks for the input. So I should set the sources to stereo, rather the relying on the AVR to do the work?


Also, should I fiddle with setting the AVR to be in 4 Ohm mode considering the speakers are 4 Ohm? I was told not to worry about that by the salesman, but I want to be sure I don't end up doing any damage to the equipment.

I would set to stereo if I could help it. If for no other reason than simplicity and ease of mind. Also, I wouldn't set it to 4 ohm either. There is a good article about that on AH that hopefully HD will link. Basically it's sets the sensitivity of the protection circuit. That's oversimplified but...

 

[yepimonfire]

Hi!

Lacking omph:
Bass is definitely a thing, it's a bit hard to describe since I don't know the terms and English is not my native language, but when listening to music CD's I feel like "Okay, this is what the speakers are actually capable of" with a ton of fidelity and I can hear parts of songs I didn't know was there and so on.

With movies it's more like "That's it?", and compared to music I feel like something is missing or I am being cheated somehow. Which makes me think it's something to do with the way everything is setup at the moment.

Frequency response:
Does that mean Ohm? The speakers are what Elac calls "4 Ohm speakers", but I was told by the retailer of the AVR to leave that set to 8 Ohm.

Speakers are set to Large and the sub seems to be disabled:

Hi.

Selecting a 2 channel mode is also where I am a bit confused. I don't know whether to select the one actually labelled "2Ch Stereo", because when I do it says "Music: Stereo" on the screen, so I am worried I am loosing out on something there.

There are also a ton of other options and I don't know what to select in order to get a proper stereo experience:

Selecting "Stereo" in moives is a bit of a challenge, as 90% of everything I watch in terms of movies is streamed via Netflix and it just spits out whatever it can from what I know.




So, I might need some help here. What is "LFE" and what does "Full Range" mean in terms of audio (I've only ever seen the term in regards to color spectrums on TV's). Above is a image of what I have available as options, and I am at a loss in regards to what I should select in order to just get downmixed stereo output.




Movies:
Chromecast
Xbox One playing some random concerts and blurays I have available

Gaming systems:
Xbox One, Playstation 4, Nintendo Switch and a Steam Link.

Yeah definitely set the speakers to small and the crossover to 80hz. The reason its lacking bass is your speakers aren't capable of putting out all of the low frequencies, with them set to small, the receiver will send all the low frequencies to the subwoofer. Full range means the speakers can reproduce from 20hz-20khz, which is the range of human hearing. few speakers can actually go all the way down to 20hz, even a good deal of sub's struggle to. Even if your speakers were full range, there's no reason not to use bass management if you've got a sub.

Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk

 

[lovinthehd]

Here's the article on how to handle the avr's impedance switch http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1

 

[lovinthehd]

I think too many years of obsessing over picture calibration has made me focused on "correct" audio and video experience.

So in general, if I can downmix at the source device (gaming system, chromecast and so on) that's a preference rather then letting the AVR do the downmixing?


I don't know if you can help on this, but the AVR has a ton of different extra settings (YPAO Volume, Adaptive DRC and a bunch else), are these extra settings like "Motionflow" on TV's and stuff that should just be disabled as soon a possible?

You can always try to see if it makes a difference using the 2.0 vs multich soundtracks in the source material or device, or seeing if downmix in the device is preferable to the avr. Try it. Not likely something to obsess about....if you hear a huge difference you like just leave it that way.

I don't worry about downmixing in the avr, tho I don't really need to worry particularly about selecting for 2.0 output in general as I'm not running 2.0 off any of my avrs.

As to the YPAO Volume I believe that is similar to DynamicEQ in an Audyssey avr. It's a loudness contour/eq that changes with volume to provide loudness compensation for the way we hear different frequencies at different volume. I use DynamicEQ frequently. Some never use it. It's a preference thing.

DRC is some sort of dynamic range compression, I never use that (it's useful for late night viewing for example where you want to contain the sound somewhat to bother those around you less).

I don't know what Motionflow is....that soap opera effect or something like that? I don't like that, if so, I'm more a film guy.