Help me improve my noob system - Where is the weakest link and would a miniDSP help?

J

johnp98

Enthusiast
Hello!

I am very new audioholics and hifi (and very quickly trying to learn as much as I can and also the lingo). I had a question about where I should put it in my system and what are the obvious 'weak links' in my system (as I was just a noob who would plug and play and did not know anything about hifi, DACs, REW, miniDSP, multi sub, etc)

As I have been doing lots of research I think there are some ways I could substantially improve my system but I really would like your feedback and what would be the next steps for improvement.

My system is in our main living room and used only for playing Spotify / music is as follows:

Echo dot (using headphone output) --> Receiver --> Stereo output to speakers (yet going to 4 speakers to have more immersive and even sound throughout the room) and then sub output to a single sub.

My thoughts for initial improvement would be

Computer (instead of echo dot as then I can use the digital output via USB) --> miniDSP (serving as a DAC and also doing all the other amazing stuff it can do with REW) and the 4 analog outputs would be --> 2 to subs (as I do have another good sub kicking around I would love to add) and 2 stereo outputs to the receiver (now to act only as an amplifier) to the 4 speakers.

So:
1) Does this seem like a reasonable improvement or what else would you focus on (obviously doing room treatments and speaker placement, etc)?
2) Would there be a benefit by upgrading the receiver (its a generic 5.1 home theater receiver) to just a dedicated amplifier?
3) Does that seem like the best place to setup the miniDSP?
4) Do I even need a miniDSP for this? As could I just have my computer run REW and then run a computer program to output the altered digital outputs.
5) Does REW and room correction work if you have a 2.2 system yet you want to use 4 speakers (so 2 off of the L, and 2 off of the R)? Do you just point the mic straight up and then run both speakers connected to the L (or R) when doing correction for that output, or anything else that you would need to do?
6) If I wanted to put the miniDSP after the Receiver is there any way to do that and have it help out the 4 speakers and 2 subs?

Thank for any suggestions or further education!

John
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Hello!

I am very new audioholics and hifi (and very quickly trying to learn as much as I can and also the lingo). I had a question about where I should put it in my system and what are the obvious 'weak links' in my system (as I was just a noob who would plug and play and did not know anything about hifi, DACs, REW, miniDSP, multi sub, etc)

As I have been doing lots of research I think there are some ways I could substantially improve my system but I really would like your feedback and what would be the next steps for improvement.

My system is in our main living room and used only for playing Spotify / music is as follows:

Echo dot (using headphone output) --> Receiver --> Stereo output to speakers (yet going to 4 speakers to have more immersive and even sound throughout the room) and then sub output to a single sub.

My thoughts for initial improvement would be

Computer (instead of echo dot as then I can use the digital output via USB) --> miniDSP (serving as a DAC and also doing all the other amazing stuff it can do with REW) and the 4 analog outputs would be --> 2 to subs (as I do have another good sub kicking around I would love to add) and 2 stereo outputs to the receiver (now to act only as an amplifier) to the 4 speakers.

So:
1) Does this seem like a reasonable improvement or what else would you focus on (obviously doing room treatments and speaker placement, etc)?
2) Would there be a benefit by upgrading the receiver (its a generic 5.1 home theater receiver) to just a dedicated amplifier?
3) Does that seem like the best place to setup the miniDSP?
4) Do I even need a miniDSP for this? As could I just have my computer run REW and then run a computer program to output the altered digital outputs.
5) Does REW and room correction work if you have a 2.2 system yet you want to use 4 speakers (so 2 off of the L, and 2 off of the R)? Do you just point the mic straight up and then run both speakers connected to the L (or R) when doing correction for that output, or anything else that you would need to do?
6) If I wanted to put the miniDSP after the Receiver is there any way to do that and have it help out the 4 speakers and 2 subs?

Thank for any suggestions or further education!

John
To answer your questions in order:
1: It doesn't sound like a very good idea to do what you want to do. Four speakers for a stereo system would wreck any kind of soundstage or stereo imaging. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but a miniDSP would be pretty much wasted given your knowledge level. A miniDSP is a great tool to solve certain problems. You don't even know what problems you might be having. You need to know how your system is behaving first via acoustic measurements.
2: If you are just using the receiver for a stereo system, there probably isn't any benefit to getting a new model, unless your present receiver is so old that it doesn't have any kind of bass management. Even that may not be a problem if you don't intend to get a subwoofer.
3: Skip the miniDSP for now.
4: I don't think you know what you are trying to accomplish with a miniDSP. It is not automated room correction. There are ways to use it in conjunction with REW to automatically develop EQ curves that can fix certain problems, but you don't even know what problems you have to begin with.
5: Don't use REW for a 4 speaker stereo system. Don't even go for a 4 speaker stereo system.
6: The only thing you should do with a miniDSP in the signal chain after the receiver is to use it to equalize the subwoofer signal.

I don't mean to sound condescending here at all. I would advise you to not worry about miniDSP or anything like that at the moment. If I were you, I would just try to get the fundamentals correct, and then go from there. Make sure your speakers are decent. Make sure they are set up correctly. Make sure speaker placement is good with respect to your listening position.

If you don't mind answering a few questions: what is your room layout like, i.e., speaker placement and listening position and also room dimensions? What model speakers and receiver do you have? What is your intended usage: movies/TV, music, video games, or a mix of those? If you are listening to music, what kind of music?
Answering those questions will help us give you better advice.
 
J

johnp98

Enthusiast
Thanks for the reply. No I won't take it the wrong way at all.

The main use us just to listen to music (we have a home theater downstairs that I will tackle next)

Room layout - ~20ft x 25ft (open concept living room into dining room)
The room is a rather dynamic room with no one single listening location (couch to one end, kitchen to the other)

I have the 4 speakers in all 4 corners at various levels (on bookshelves, ontop of the fridge, etc) - I do try and bring them forward as much as logistically possible to give them room the breathe.

Speakers are Energy bookshelf speakers - sorry I am away from home so I cannot recall the specifics.

Reciever is Sony 5.1 Channel AV Receiver- STR-K660P

Do you think I should just cut it down to 2 speakers? I just then find that there is such a significant directional component to the sound and it is way louder near the source, but maybe that is what actually gives better sound quality (as I guess if all the speakers are shooting various directions in the room then there must be a lot of nodes and anti nodes that end up cancelling?)

So should I go for 2 speakers, 2 subs and then go for digital output instead of analog and then look at DACs and receivers and leave the miniDSP for way later on? I was just plunging into the deep end and hoping to swim.

I was possibly going to get a mic and start measuring, but I figured if I was going to go down that road then I assume REW would be part of the solution.

Anyways thanks for any further advice / education.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Wow that receiver is pretty old. It has no bass management that is usable. It was made for some Sony HTiB speakers. You can't really use a modern subwoofer with that system. I'm not even sure its giving you any kind of bass from the front channels, since its front stage power rating only goes from 120 Hz to 20 kHz. It is expecting to amplify a particular model of subwoofer too.

I think you need a new receiver.

My guess is that your Energy speakers are from the Take series? Those were fine for the price back in the day, but you can do a lot better.

I think you should aim for a decent two-channel system to start with. Don't worry about REW or MiniDSP for now. Just getting the basics right will be a huge improvement over what you have currently.
 
J

johnp98

Enthusiast
Sounds good, thanks for the advice!

Any suggestions on decent two channel systems (I am sure there are lots of lists somewhere)?

Any thoughts on if cutting back to 2 speakers would be more ideal, or can you use multiple speakers to cover the room better?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Sounds good, thanks for the advice!

Any suggestions on decent two channel systems (I am sure there are lots of lists somewhere)?

Any thoughts on if cutting back to 2 speakers would be more ideal, or can you use multiple speakers to cover the room better?
Kinda depends on your use and preference. Seems you want more background music in your living room? An avr can still be useful and offer better use of 4 speakers (or more), and usually will have superior bass management over most 2ch gear.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Sounds good, thanks for the advice!

Any suggestions on decent two channel systems (I am sure there are lots of lists somewhere)?

Any thoughts on if cutting back to 2 speakers would be more ideal, or can you use multiple speakers to cover the room better?
For a two-channel system, what is your budget? Is there any restriction on size or speaker type, i.e., can you accommodate tower speakers?

And yes, I would stick with two speakers over four. Four speakers will certainly give you a more suffuse sound field, but stereo imaging will be a blur. Think of it this way, when you go to a concert and see a band or orchestra, they are only playing in front of you, not all around you. Most music isn't intended to be a surround sound experience. Its a performance by the artist or artists from a localized source. There is width in a stereo recording, but it isn't supposed to be coming from everywhere.
 
J

johnp98

Enthusiast
Yes that does make sense.
I could accommodate two tower speakers.
I would probably have $500-1000 budget.
Let me know where you think I could best focus my money / efforts.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
There are several routes you can go.

One bundle I like is this Kali Audio speakers with Blue Tooth controller. Those are heavy duty monitors that have very good fidelity. They are self-amplified so you do not need to buy an amplifier. They were designed to be JBL LSR beaters. That package comes with a blue tooth streamer and controller, so you can stream stuff from your phone or PC or whatever device, and it also has a volume control. Those speakers have 8" woofers so they should be capable of pretty good bass down to 40 Hz. You will need to buy some XLR cables to connect the controller to the monitors. The sound system as a whole would come in the lower end of your budget, probably not much over $500 all in. Absolutely killer system for the price.

An affordable bookshelf speaker with impressively deep bass is the Monolith K-BAS speakers, which are on sale for $360/pair at the moment. These are great for a two channel bookshelf system that has to go without subwoofers since its bass extension is so good for the size. It's a good speaker with nice performance overall.

For bookshelf speakers that would be best used with a subwoofer, check out the KEF Q150s, Canton Chrono 512s, Hsu HB-1 mk2s, or Ascend CBM-170s. They all range from $300 to $400 a pair. All are pretty good.

For a subwoofer to pair those speakers with, look at the Dayton SUB-1200. It is a highly regarded sub for the price. At that price, get two! Two will set you back $300.

For some full range tower speakers that do not need a sub, look at the Fluance Signature Three-ways, Klipsch RP-280F, or JBL Studio 290. All of those will get you great bass, very wide dynamic range, and relatively accurate sound. The JBLs have a really good sale going on them at the moment. Keep in mind they are all pretty large speakers. These speakers can be had along with a receiver for around $1k.

For an amplifier/receiver, check out some of the deals at Accessories4less. Here are a few AVRs that will work just fine for a 2-channel system that can be paired with any of the above speakers without pushing too far ahead of your $1k budget: Yamaha RX-V483 and Denon AVR-S730H .

Any of the above systems will blow your current system out of the water.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Might note that the better JBL 590 goes on sale occasionally for the last several years at $450 each or so....
 
J

johnp98

Enthusiast
Thanks so much for the advice and recommendations! I will look into those options.

I am leaning toward 2 bookshelf speakers and then 2 subs as I do appreciate true deep bass and I feel that having dedicated subs with their own power supply would be more ideal.

This may be a dumb question, but most music is mixed for stereo output is it not? So then all you need if all you are just going to listen to is music is 2.2 output. So are you paying a premium to have a 5.1 system (would you even use those other channels)? I do realize that those 5.1 systems are not too expensive so that probably is just the way to go. This is more just for my knoledge and not trying to be difficult.
Thanks!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks so much for the advice and recommendations! I will look into those options.

I am leaning toward 2 bookshelf speakers and then 2 subs as I do appreciate true deep bass and I feel that having dedicated subs with their own power supply would be more ideal.

This may be a dumb question, but most music is mixed for stereo output is it not? So then all you need if all you are just going to listen to is music is 2.2 output. So are you paying a premium to have a 5.1 system (would you even use those other channels)? I do realize that those 5.1 systems are not too expensive so that probably is just the way to go. This is more just for my knoledge and not trying to be difficult.
Thanks!
Most music is mixed as 2.0, some in multi-ch 5.1 or 7.1 (via SACD, DVD and Blu-ray discs). I'm a fan of multich music myself. Not tons available but I enjoy what there is. I also upmix some 2.0 music to multich. The premium is more in the cost of additional speakers, not all 5.1 systems are inexpensive as a result, altho an avr is a relatively inexpensive way to power such. AVRs also have better bass management for subs generally than most of the 2ch gear out there....
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Thanks so much for the advice and recommendations! I will look into those options.

I am leaning toward 2 bookshelf speakers and then 2 subs as I do appreciate true deep bass and I feel that having dedicated subs with their own power supply would be more ideal.

This may be a dumb question, but most music is mixed for stereo output is it not? So then all you need if all you are just going to listen to is music is 2.2 output. So are you paying a premium to have a 5.1 system (would you even use those other channels)? I do realize that those 5.1 systems are not too expensive so that probably is just the way to go. This is more just for my knoledge and not trying to be difficult.
Thanks!
Economies of scale manufacturing make surround sound receivers a cost effective way to build an affordable two-channel setup. There are two-channel receivers out there, but they don't necessarily have more power, and they absolutely will have fewer features and less flexibility. For example, none of the two-channel receivers have worthwhile bass management for your subwoofers. They also won't be able to cope with HDMI.
 
colofan

colofan

Enthusiast
I would go DIY if you can. Parts express has speaker kits that give you a lot of speaker for the buck.
 
J

johnp98

Enthusiast
Ok, I took everyone's advice and what a difference!

I have never understood what people were talking about with soundstage until I got rid of those bloody extra speakers and actually spent time with proper speaker positioning and whatnot.

I got a used marantz SR7002 with some speakers for upgrading the home theater and it sounds great!

I guess the only thing I have yet to fully settle on is the main listening area as it now goes:

Computer --> HDMI cord --> Receiver --> 2.2 system

I am wondering if I should get a minidsp for managing those 2 subs and if the minidsp could then negate the need for the receiver. My thought would be that it could go:
Computer --> usb cord --> MiniDSP --> 2 signals to an amp for L and R speakers and 2 signals for 2 subs.

Does that seem reasonable? Or are most people using the miniDSP after the amp just to deal with the subs?

Thanks for all the prior help.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
What are the speakers you're using now? Not a bad old avr, not current for the latest and greatest audio/video formats but certainly quite useable.

As to eliminating the avr and using the appropriate minidsp unit, that can go a couple ways. Just what content are you concerned with? Just 2ch audio? Video? Combos? Expansion to multich down the line?

Usually we're referring to a 2x4 minidsp unit for sub management, and using the dedicated low passed analog signal from the avr for processing in the minidsp for the subs. Such units go in between the pre-amp and amp, and do come in more capable versions and with various audio features. If you want a dac or other pre-amp type features plus a power amp then you need more than the 2x4.....but goes back to what you want to process for audio/video to start with.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Ok, I took everyone's advice and what a difference!

I have never understood what people were talking about with soundstage until I got rid of those bloody extra speakers and actually spent time with proper speaker positioning and whatnot.

I got a used marantz SR7002 with some speakers for upgrading the home theater and it sounds great!

I guess the only thing I have yet to fully settle on is the main listening area as it now goes:

Computer --> HDMI cord --> Receiver --> 2.2 system

I am wondering if I should get a minidsp for managing those 2 subs and if the minidsp could then negate the need for the receiver. My thought would be that it could go:
Computer --> usb cord --> MiniDSP --> 2 signals to an amp for L and R speakers and 2 signals for 2 subs.

Does that seem reasonable? Or are most people using the miniDSP after the amp just to deal with the subs?

Thanks for all the prior help.
Again, I wouldn't worry about miniDSP until you know what has to be equalized. In this situation, MiniDSP is used for ironing out the response of room-related acoustic problems. But you have to measure the room response to see what problems you are having to begin with in order for MiniDSP to be useful. So you would need a measurement mic and a PC that has REW installed.
 
J

johnp98

Enthusiast
Thanks
What are the speakers you're using now? Not a bad old avr, not current for the latest and greatest audio/video formats but certainly quite useable.

As to eliminating the avr and using the appropriate minidsp unit, that can go a couple ways. Just what content are you concerned with? Just 2ch audio? Video? Combos? Expansion to multich down the line?

Usually we're referring to a 2x4 minidsp unit for sub management, and using the dedicated low passed analog signal from the avr for processing in the minidsp for the subs. Such units go in between the pre-amp and amp, and do come in more capable versions and with various audio features. If you want a dac or other pre-amp type features plus a power amp then you need more than the 2x4.....but goes back to what you want to process for audio/video to start with.
In that room it would just be playing music, and all through a computer. That is why I am thinking that maybe I could take the receiver completely out of the equation if I went Computer --> MiniDSP 2x4 HD --> 2 outputs to Subs 2 outputs to amp which has the L and R speakers.
Although I do not know how much this would actually improve my system.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks


In that room it would just be playing music, and all through a computer. That is why I am thinking that maybe I could take the receiver completely out of the equation if I went Computer --> MiniDSP 2x4 HD --> 2 outputs to Subs 2 outputs to amp which has the L and R speakers.
Although I do not know how much this would actually improve my system.
What speakers will the amp be driving? What amp are you thinking about?

The Marantz receiver has a dac and a relatively capable amp and bass management now. The main improvements potentially would be in your speakers, not by coming up with an alternate set of gear to the receiver. Is the size of the receiver an issue? Hard to use without video?

Minidsp 2x4HD does not have a dac to convert the digital information from the usb connection you diagrammed earlier, altho you could potentially use another type of minidsp unit, and/or use the analog outs from the computer with a 2x4HD (have you looked at their various products?). You might want to look at the costs of such a unit and amp vs the receiver. Not much to gain with changing from the receiver other than maybe size reduction....

ps What outputs does your computer have? HDMI? USB? Optical?
 
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