Help me choose a Subwoofer please

R

Ric2L

Enthusiast
Friday I bought 2 Def Tech Mythos One tower speakers, and plan on getting a Mythos 3 for the center & a set of Mythos Gems for the rear surrounds within 30 to 60 days. I have a Yamaha RX-V765 receiver that will be used to power them. Now... I need to figure out what Sub to buy. This will be my next purchase, hopefully within a week or two, & I would like to stay around the $500.00 range or less. I was looking at the Velodyne line, but there are so many to choose from and I really don't know what to look for in a sub. I've been reading & researching but its getting real confusing. Subs that I've come across in my reading are SVS, Rythmik, Outlaw, HSU, Acoustic, and the list goes on.

What would you guys recommend to go with this setup, or what should I look for in a good subwoofer. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Room size is approxmatly 14' X 18' with a 6' opening into my dining/kitchen area.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Just like any regular speaker, you want a subwoofer that can output linear (flat) frequency response. If you want to be able to hear absolutely everything in a recording, your subwoofer needs to be able to play down to 20Hz. You also want it to play with as little distortion as possible. And finally, you want it to be able to play loud enough to pressurize your room to the desired SPL while not giving up linearity, extension or low distortion.

That last bit is where things get really tough. There are quite a few subwoofers these days that can output linear, low distortion bass with extension down to 20Hz (or at least, close to it). But many, many subwoofers can only do this at moderate volume levels. At higher loudness, most subs cannot maintain their linearity and instead of the frequency response looking like a flat line, it starts to look like a slope.

This isn't the end of the world. For one thing, the room interacts with bass A LOT. In any room, you get what is called, "room gain", where the bass that is basically bouncing around the walls, ceiling and floor will increase the perceived loudness. And most people do not listen to their systems at full "reference" volume levels, which calls for 105-115dB "peaks" from time to time. Most of the time, most people keep the volume level quite a bit lower.

Regardless, the goals that I mentioned still stand. In the sort of price range that you are talking about, I have not come across any subwoofer that performs and measures better than the SVSound PB12-NSD. It can play remarkably loud while maintaining relatively low distortion and astonishingly linear frequency response. It is a little bit over your $500 mark, but I truly cannot recommend any other subwoofer more highly. It would be well worth your while to stretch your budget just a little bit :)

Be sure to really take in the physical size of this subwoofer. Among enthusiasts, the PB12-NSD is considered to be relatively small. But to most "normal" people, it is freakin' huge! lol

As I mentioned, the bass that you hear does not just come from the subwoofer alone. Your room plays a huge role in the final bass that you hear. "Room gain" might help in terms of pure loudness, but the big downside is that all of that reflected sound is actually "distortion" in the strictest sense. It is an echo and it can serve to "muddy" the sound and make it less clear and distinct.

Some of the reflected sound waves will also "double up" as they cross past one another or they will cancel each other out as the "crest" of one sound-wave crosses paths with the "valley" of another. These areas where the reflected sound waves interact strongly are called "bass peaks" and "bass nulls" and they are entirely dependant on your room. What you want to do is position your seat and your subwoofer very carefully so that - at your seat - you are not sitting directly in a "peak" or a "null". The "trick" to figuring out where best to put your subwoofer is to do the following:

- move your seat out of the way and put the subwoofer where you would normally sit.

- play some loud, constant bass. This Test Tone CD from RealTraps is an excellent source!

- you probably have a few places in your room where you would be willing to put the subwoofer. Go to those locations and kneel so that your head is at the same height it would be when you're seated in your regular seat.

- Listen at each location and try to find the best spot where the bass is smoothest and most even - without any big peaks or dips at certain frequencies. You won't be able to escape them all, but try to find the best spot overall.

- Now put your subwoofer in that spot and move your seat back to its normal position and enjoy your better bass! :)

Finally, a VITAL thing to do is to decouple your subwoofer from the floor. Sound does not just travel through the air. Sound also travels through the solid structure of your home. Whether it be wood, drywall, concrete, steal, what-have-you; sound travels through the structure of your building and bass is transmitted particularly well. This is why you (or your neighbors) can often hear the bass thumping away, even when the higher frequencies are quiet or inaudible.

At certain resonant frequencies, the structure will shake just from interacting with the sound waves in the air. Other than absorbing as many room reflections as possible using bass traps, there isn't anything that you can do about this.

But a great deal of shaking comes from the physical connection between the subwoofer and the floor when the sub is just sitting on the ground - the way most people have it. Far more shaking than you would probably imagine causes your entire structure to shake in sympathy with the subwoofer. To your neighbors or other people in the house, this results in annoying, audible bass throughout the whole building! But inside your theater, it leads to "muddy" indistinct sounding bass as well.

To greatly reduce this structure-borne sound transmission, what you need is a "shock absorber" in between the bottom of your subwoofer and the floor. We call this "decoupling". And the best decoupling device is the Auralex GRAMMA isolation riser.

This is not a "tweak". This is a MUST HAVE. Though I heartily encourage people to listen to your system both with the GRAMMA under the sub and with the subwoofer just sitting directly on the floor. Hearing is believing in this case. And your neighbors will thank you (or rather, just not come knocking to complain ;) )

So we did go over your $500 mark, but the PB12-NSD atop an Auralex GRAMMA is absolutely the highest value. There is nothing that I know of at the same price or cheaper that can compare. So, in this case, spending a little over your budget is WELL worth it!

Best of luck!
 
R

Ric2L

Enthusiast
Wow!!!

Thank you very much for this information. This really helps me out alot, your explanation on what to look for in a sub is way better than anything I have read over the last two days while trying to find a sub.

I was looking at the SVSound PB12-NSD, but wasn't sure if I should go for it or not. Now with this recomendation I found my sub. I will check out that decoupling device you linked to, and probably go with it also, though this may push back my center & surrounds a couple of weeks, but I think I can live with that.

Again, thank you
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You're most welcome!

If I could persuade you, this is a case where it is truly worth your while to spend a bit extra for genuinely excellent performance, but also for the Auralex GRAMMA decoupling device, which is critical for getting the best performance in your room. I would actually go so far as to say that buying the subwoofer without the decoupling device is a bit of a waste. I wish with all my heart that subwoofer companies would simply include a decoupling pad with every single subwoofer ever sold. It makes that much of a difference. And I really hope that you will do a little experiment and try listening both with the GRAMMA in place and without the GRAMMA. Every single person I've come across who has ever gone from no decoupling riser to having the decoupling riser in place has instantly understood the improvement and become an evangelist for the GRAMMA just like me :p

I have gone through too many systems, too many upgrades and spent WAY too much money over the years. I've enjoyed learning things the hard way, but what I wouldn't give to go back with the knowledge that I have now! All I can say is that there are certain, clear times when it is best to simply spend as little as possible (like for your speaker wire), times when it is best to stick to your budget (like for your furniture), and times when it is best to really put performance as the top priority and simply save up or take more time so that you can truly get the best VALUE possible.

Buying a subwoofer only to find yourself unsatisfied and wanting to upgrade within a few months is not good value. I'd even say that buying a sub that leaves any trace of doubt in your mind is not a good value :p Yes, the PB12-NSD with the Auralex GRAMMA is a bit more than you were hoping to spend. But it is SO worth it. In the long run, it will save you money because you won't find yourself wondering if you could have purchased something better for just a little more money and you won't find yourself dissatisfied and wanting to upgrade in a few months!

Best of luck! And please come back and share your experience with us :)
 
T

tcarcio

Audioholic General
Excellent post Firstreflection, very informative and easy to understand. Oh by the way I agree with everything FR said but don't rule out building your own sub. It isn't that difficult if you take your time and you can get much more for your money. Good luck....:)
 
R

Ric2L

Enthusiast
SVS PB12-NSD or Outlaw Audio LMF-1 EX

Well I was all set to order a SVS PB12-NSD sub tomorrow at a cost of $569.00 + $57.22 shipping = "$626.22". When reading other threads I see that Outlaw Audio currently has their LMF-1 EX for $552.00 w/free shipping.

I really don't know which would be the better choice, and was hoping you guys could help me out making the best choice. Is the SVS a better sub or if there that close should I save the $75.00 and go with the Outlaw????
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
Great Post FirstReflection. I have the PB12 NSD/2 on a gramma and couldn't agree more. I would though rethink the Mythos Gems. They are good only down to about 150Hz, no matter what Deftech claims, so I would consider another pair of Ones for the rear channels.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
BTW Ric, I have heard the Outlaw and the SVS and would easily go with the SVS, it is that much better. Not saying the Outlaw is bad, but you get far better bass response with the SVS.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I would go with the Outlaw. The PB12 would be a comparable sub, but I have a hard time believing it will beat a LFM-1 EX. By the way, your comparison is ridiculous, the NSD/2 is a more powerful and expensive sub which isn't available anymore. We are talking about the regular NSD. I would also question the circumstances under which you are comparing them. On paper, the Outlaw is a more powerful sub, although I have heard neither so I can't say it truly is with certainty.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
WmAx's Outlandish Recommendation

WmAx's Outlandish Recommendation

I have taken the time to come up with a new off-the-shelf parts buildable subwoofer that will easily outperform any of the recommendations made here, although at some modest increase in the budget. Extension, anechoic is about -3 dB at around 22Hz. In room -3dB will average around 18-19Hz. Output level in average room, corner loaded, should be about 117dB around 20Hz, and around 120 dB over 30Hz. This is accounting for motor non-linearity and use of the BASH amplifier. You can get 3-4dB more output across the board by using a serious amplifier, with at least 1200 watts clean output.

Parts
-JL 10" W7 Driver : LINK : $400 w/shipping
-Parts Express 3 cubic foot cabinet, Part No. 302-847 : LINK : $150 w/shipping
-O Audio 500 Watt BASH plate amplifier LINK : $230
-3" PVC or ABS pipe + 90 degree elbows + PVC/ABS cement and cleaner/primer
-PLH Professional Polyurethane Construction Adhesive
-Acoustic stuffing / high density type
-Thin cloth to cover fiber based stuffing
-Super 77 3M spray adhesive to attach the cloth to acoustic dampening fiber
-Screws


You will need to use 3 separate 3" ports to keep port velocity low. Buying ports/elbows from an audio site is seemingly expensive. You should do much better buying 3" PVC or ABS pipe and 90 degree elbows from a local plumbing supply shop. Each port needs to be approximately 36-38" long, and you need 3 of them. It will require 2 90 degree elbows for each port (a total of 6 elbows) and you need to use enough pipe to get a total effective center measured distance of 36"-38" for each port. To securely fix the ABS/PVC into front holes cut in the cabinet, you can cut some additional pieces of wood to add in additional cabinet wall width via the rear of the baffle to allow a greater glue surface area to secure the pipe. Over size the hole by at least 1/8" to allow for easy glue filling. Clean the pipe where it will be glued thoroughly with denatured alcohol. Use a professional polyurethane adhesive. PLH makes one in caulk tubes - a solid, super strong material that is ideal for this application. Use generously. Stabilize/brace the pipe while the glue sets. I recommend gluing in some scrap wood in the cabinet to support the long ports at least in one additional spot besides the front cabinet mount points. You can also easily add more bracing to further stiffen the overall cabinet structure by using some scrap wood. Easiest method is to use solid oak, in 1 x 3" pieces, and glue in ribs around the inside of the cabinet structure. Add cross braces where possible - but keep ALL objects at least 2" from around the side of the ports, and at least 4" from the front of the ports internally. The actual cabinet is pre-made and finished with black vinyl. This is hard to call a DIY project - it's more of a nearly completed kit, more or less.

All you have to do is buy the parts and do basic assembly. Cut a hole for the driver in the cabinet. Cut a hole for the amp. Cut 3 holes for the ports. I will assist anyone by PM or phone call in the project.

Total cost should come to about $800-$850.
OP, I know this is over your stated budget - but this gives you a much higher performance subwoofer, in terms of fidelity and SPL.

Performance will greatly exceed anything around this price point. The 10W7 driver in reality, nearly matches very high quality conventional 15" sub drivers in output level, and with very low distortion. It's not fair to compare it with 12" coventional subs, much less conventional 10" subs. You can use a larger amplifier than the BASH - I just specified the BASH due to it's known high build quality and needed subsonic filter that it includes to prevent excursion problems under the port tuning frequency. Set the subsonic filter at about 18Hz. Stuff cabinet with high density fiberglass or rockwool board (4-8lbs/ft^3 density). The more you use, the more acoustic dampening will occur, and the lower cutoff response will have a smoother, more gradual roll off, causing the subective effect of 'tighter' bass with more dampening than less. Use a thin cloth glued over the fiberglass/rockwool (Super 77 3M spray glue works well - found in Wal-Mart or your local Lowes and Home Depot) to prevent the fibers from kicking up inside. They can possible kick up and enter the back of the subwoofer motor via the rear driver vent, thus causing possible problems if it wedges between the voice coil and gap internally.

-Chris
 
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R

Ric2L

Enthusiast
Well since I haven't seen anything to make me go with the Outlaw over the SVS I guess I'm going to stick with the SVS since it has such good recomendations/reviews here and on other forums. I'll post back when I complete my system (center & rears) and let you know my impressions.
 
R

Ric2L

Enthusiast
Well, I finally did it, got my system completed with the addition of an "SVS PC12-NSD" and all I can say is WOW..... I can't thank FirstReflection and the rest of you guys enough. Its simply amazing!!! Now I wish I could find a round isolation riser to match the PC12, but intil I do, I'll keep using my Gramma, that was sitting here waiting for a subwoofer to be placed on it for the last 2 months.

Again thanks for the recommendation guys, I'm very happy

Oh yea, other componets are, Definitive Technology Mythos Ones in front, Mythos Three for the center, Gem XL's in the rear. All powered by a Yamaha RX-V765. A Samsung PN50A650 TV, and a Samsung BDP-2500 blu-ray player.
 
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
I clicked "thanks" because it bums me out how many of these discussions end with the advisee just buggering off and never coming back with a follow up.
 
J

jid

Audioholic Intern
well, since the OP got all the advice he's needed and finalized his system I have a bit of a related question..

I've been considering buying a PB10-NSD but the thing I'm worried about is that this sub will actually be overkill in my situation since I'll be moving to and staying in an appartment building for the forseeable future, I really don't want to be evicted! So for the last few days I've been tormenting myself over whether to get the PB10 or to save $100 and just get a Paradigm DSP 3100 which'll not be as good value (less power, doesn't go as low) but I might not need any more than this? The thing that cought my eye in this thread is the Auralex pads, although 20Hz waves are still 20Hz waves that'll probably go through concrete walls I'm wondering if using one of these would do enough to let me use a PB10-NSD AND keep my appartment?

For reference Toronto appartments are generally pretty small, I'm moving in 2 months but typically living room is something like 12x15? with opening into dining/kitchen and hallway to bedrooms.

I need someone to offer some advice hopefully from experience because I want to stop tormenting myself over what to do here.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
No such thing as overkill when it comes to this hobby :D

Don't worry about the SVS. Just turn the gain down if you need to. No big deal.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
well, since the OP got all the advice he's needed and finalized his system I have a bit of a related question..

I've been considering buying a PB10-NSD but the thing I'm worried about is that this sub will actually be overkill in my situation since I'll be moving to and staying in an appartment building for the forseeable future, I really don't want to be evicted! So for the last few days I've been tormenting myself over whether to get the PB10 or to save $100 and just get a Paradigm DSP 3100 which'll not be as good value (less power, doesn't go as low) but I might not need any more than this? The thing that cought my eye in this thread is the Auralex pads, although 20Hz waves are still 20Hz waves that'll probably go through concrete walls I'm wondering if using one of these would do enough to let me use a PB10-NSD AND keep my appartment?

For reference Toronto appartments are generally pretty small, I'm moving in 2 months but typically living room is something like 12x15? with opening into dining/kitchen and hallway to bedrooms.

I need someone to offer some advice hopefully from experience because I want to stop tormenting myself over what to do here.
Is this more for movies or music? If for movies, I might consider a transducer, and I know that Buttkicker and Earthquake make them. Your couch shakes, but it won't transmit any further than that, so neighbors are not a concern. Of course there are quite a few with dedicated HTs who combined both subs and transducers.
 
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